Religion Discussion Thread

shafnutz05
Posts: 50596
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:27 pm
Location: A moron or a fascist...but not both.

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby shafnutz05 » Tue May 02, 2023 5:47 pm

for those that are religious…how do you rationalize the universe?


like, we’re all familiar with the concept of intelligent design. Do you subscribe to that? If so, why is Jupiter and other planets in our solar system a thing? why are galaxies that humans will never be able to reach a thing?
The design of the solar system, and what I know about the countless perfect coincidences that all led to Earth being a perfect home for us, is one of the reasons for my faith, actually. If it wasn't for Jupiter and Saturn, Earth would have been blasted out of the solar system by a rogue meteoroid or comet millions of years ago. They essentially act to stabilize our solar system.

There are dozens and dozens of fortunate facts and things that happened over millions of years that have made Earth/our solar system an improbably safe little corner of the galaxy.

Even things like the Moon being 400x smaller than the Sun but being 400x closer so it's exactly the same size... That stuff fascinates me. The atheist would say that all of these lucky aspects of our solar system are just that... Luck. And I get it.

robbiestoupe
Posts: 11603
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:27 pm

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby robbiestoupe » Wed May 03, 2023 8:41 am

I agree with what shaf said regarding our solar system. It's there as an ecosystem if you will to help sustain life on earth. Regarding the rest of the universe, its existence in my mind is for our wonder and awe of it. Nothing else really, and even for most atheists they would agree with that aspect. Not so much the "This had to be intelligent design" but more the raw fascination of it.

For some the universe holds the key to understanding how it all came to be. Even I have a certain wonder on the how of creation. When I was younger I was much more of a young earth believer and the Big Bang was just a silly theory but now I lean more towards the Big Bang being a real thing. I also believe it was very intentional and had nothing to do with probability.

count2infinity
Posts: 35764
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: All things must pass. With six you get eggroll. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
Contact:

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby count2infinity » Wed May 03, 2023 8:52 am

Source of the post The atheist would say that all of these lucky aspects of our solar system are just that... Luck. And I get it.
Yeah... I'm more toward the agnostic side of atheist, but to me it's not so much of a "the conditions here are perfect because a designer made them so just for us" kind of thing. I see it as we're only here because the off chance that the conditions lined up so perfectly in this spot for us to be here.

Imagine slapping your keyboard with both hands. Almost every single time it'll just be a jumble of letters and numbers. Every so often, once in a hundred, thousand, hundreds of thousand, millions of slaps a word will appear. Once in a quadrillion it'll be a word that maybe you intended to slap to existence. That's Earth imo. There are roughly 10^25 planets in the universe as calculated by astrophysicists that orbit stars.

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 slaps on a key board... in one of them "life" appeared on the screen.

robbiestoupe
Posts: 11603
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:27 pm

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby robbiestoupe » Wed May 03, 2023 9:14 am

Source of the post The atheist would say that all of these lucky aspects of our solar system are just that... Luck. And I get it.
Yeah... I'm more toward the agnostic side of atheist, but to me it's not so much of a "the conditions here are perfect because a designer made them so just for us" kind of thing. I see it as we're only here because the off chance that the conditions lined up so perfectly in this spot for us to be here.

Imagine slapping your keyboard with both hands. Almost every single time it'll just be a jumble of letters and numbers. Every so often, once in a hundred, thousand, hundreds of thousand, millions of slaps a word will appear. Once in a quadrillion it'll be a word that maybe you intended to slap to existence. That's Earth imo. There are roughly 10^25 planets in the universe as calculated by astrophysicists that orbit stars.

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 slaps on a key board... in one of them "life" appeared on the screen.
I have questions (some in the form of comments). These are out of curiosity, mind you, not an accusation that I think you're wrong.

In this scenario, there are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 failed universes floating out there.

There are probably also several universes where things kind of worked out, but perhaps a different result. In the two previous points, where and how do these universes coexist?

The amount of time for these things to occur is mind boggling. Forget our universe being billions of years old. These other universes are billions to the billionth power of years old.

You start to get the sense that the term infinity should start to be used (you should get that :D )

Infinity starts to open a real strange can of worms.

There's a problem with your scenario. There's no intention to the slapping of the keyboard. Sure, once in a quintillion slaps you may get a word or sentence. But life? Not sure if you were intentionally leaving that part out, but it is significant.

Using a different analogy that's closer to the real thing: I set off a quintillion bottle rockets filled with all the ingredients of the universe. Still can't see how one of those explosions turns into a mini universe that sustains itself. What was introduced in the quintillionth explosion that wasn't there before? It wouldn't be coincidence, it would be intentional.

As a fellow scientist, you should get that. You do a bunch of experiments and get the same, expected, predicted results. You do another, and you get a different result you don't expect. Not slightly off, but way off. You mix two hydrogens and an oxygen and you get a dog. Would you say that the final test was just an anomaly, or would you think something was introduced in that final test that wasn't there in the first set of tests?

eddy
Posts: 22355
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:49 am
Location: Emmet's barn loft

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby eddy » Wed May 03, 2023 9:22 am

for those that are religious…how do you rationalize the universe?


like, we’re all familiar with the concept of intelligent design. Do you subscribe to that? If so, why is Jupiter and other planets in our solar system a thing? why are galaxies that humans will never be able to reach a thing?
Obviously, Jupiter is a thing because in the 12th house, it's responsible for your salvation and spiritual deeds.

count2infinity
Posts: 35764
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: All things must pass. With six you get eggroll. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
Contact:

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby count2infinity » Wed May 03, 2023 9:42 am

I have questions (some in the form of comments). These are out of curiosity, mind you, not an accusation that I think you're wrong.

In this scenario, there are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 failed universes floating out there.
No no... I'm saying that's how many planets there are in the universe... the likelihood that one of them is exactly like our Earth and has the same history of our earth is 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Super duper slim odds, but non-zero. And here we are.
There are probably also several universes where things kind of worked out, but perhaps a different result. In the two previous points, where and how do these universes coexist?

No clue, never been in my thoughts. Although "where" didn't exist until the big bang. There was no up, down, left, right nor time before that happened. Where was all that stuff?... well, It wasn't.
The amount of time for these things to occur is mind boggling. Forget our universe being billions of years old. These other universes are billions to the billionth power of years old.

You start to get the sense that the term infinity should start to be used (you should get that :D )

Infinity starts to open a real strange can of worms.
Yes. Infinity is odd. Not sure where you're going with this, but calculations get whacky when you consider infinity.
There's a problem with your scenario. There's no intention to the slapping of the keyboard. Sure, once in a quintillion slaps you may get a word or sentence. But life? Not sure if you were intentionally leaving that part out, but it is significant.
I see no need for intention. Some of the slaps got "explode", one of the slaps got "pqhgf41q9". How remarkable that the slap created pqhgf41q9!!!
Using a different analogy that's closer to the real thing: I set off a quintillion bottle rockets filled with all the ingredients of the universe. Still can't see how one of those explosions turns into a mini universe that sustains itself. What was introduced in the quintillionth explosion that wasn't there before? It wouldn't be coincidence, it would be intentional.
I do not see it the same way, and that's fine. I see no reason to have intention. I see no reason to suggest there were other "big bangs". Perhaps in alternative dimensions in alternative universes, but That's beyond my level of understanding and thinking. This idea that there undoubtedly HAS to be intention behind it is just not something that registers in my brain. I'm not saying that there, without a doubt, wasn't any intention behind it. I'm just not convinced.
As a fellow scientist, you should get that. You do a bunch of experiments and get the same, expected, predicted results. You do another, and you get a different result you don't expect. Not slightly off, but way off. You mix two hydrogens and an oxygen and you get a dog. Would you say that the final test was just an anomaly, or would you think something was introduced in that final test that wasn't there in the first set of tests?
I, again, have no idea what you're getting at here. If you mix two hydrogens and an oxygen and get a dog, let me know. I'd like to see it. Obviously in science there's a need to repeat your experiments and if something is way off you go and figure it out, but that's small scale stuff. The universe and the laws that sustain our place in time and space are far bigger than my little lab experiments.

In my opinion things are they way they are because that's the way they are. Designed that way? I'm not closed off to the idea of it, but I'm certainly not in the absolute of yes... it has to be designed, and I'm okay with the idea of I don't know and will never know. I'm at peace with it and will enjoy my time while I have it.

robbiestoupe
Posts: 11603
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:27 pm

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby robbiestoupe » Wed May 03, 2023 10:14 am

OK, perhaps I misunderstood your stance and mixed it with other theories out there.
No clue, never been in my thoughts. Although "where" didn't exist until the big bang. There was no up, down, left, right nor time before that happened. Where was all that stuff?... well, It wasn't.
So the big bang was one shot, and that shot just so happened to be the Goldilocks shot?
Yes. Infinity is odd. Not sure where you're going with this, but calculations get whacky when you consider infinity.
This had more to do with the 1/quintillion shot and googleplex universes out there. My mind can't comprehend infinity, especially with regards to time. Infinity pretty much destroys time, and therefore all the theories about light and distance are also destroyed. In theory. Infinity is such a grandiose term that you could formulate a bunch of theories and not really be wrong or right about it.

But I get the sense infinity has an impact on who we are. We wouldn't exist without it, and are living within its bounds (for lack of a better term). Even though it cannot be touched upon in my understanding, it's there. To me that means a Supreme Being. Not everybody sees it that way, and it's not the sole basis of my belief, but it's there.

count2infinity
Posts: 35764
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: All things must pass. With six you get eggroll. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
Contact:

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby count2infinity » Wed May 03, 2023 10:23 am

Source of the post So the big bang was one shot, and that shot just so happened to be the Goldilocks shot?
No clue... There's lots of theories and they evolve over time. THE big bang was one shot. Yes. And Earth just so happened to be in the goldilocks zone to support life. There are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 where it most likely wasn't in the goldilocks zone which is why we're here and not on any of those others.

Have there been previous big bangs? Are there parallel universes? Will the universe contract and start all over again just slightly different? No idea and to be honest, I don't care. We exist for such a miniscule amount of time but to us, that time is the most important thing in the universe which I think blinds us a bit as to worrying about the why and how rather than just enjoying the ride.

Morkle
Posts: 23089
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby Morkle » Wed May 03, 2023 10:33 am


robbiestoupe
Posts: 11603
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 3:27 pm

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby robbiestoupe » Wed May 03, 2023 10:40 am

Source of the post So the big bang was one shot, and that shot just so happened to be the Goldilocks shot?
No clue... There's lots of theories and they evolve over time. THE big bang was one shot. Yes. And Earth just so happened to be in the goldilocks zone to support life. There are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 where it most likely wasn't in the goldilocks zone which is why we're here and not on any of those others.

Have there been previous big bangs? Are there parallel universes? Will the universe contract and start all over again just slightly different? No idea and to be honest, I don't care. We exist for such a miniscule amount of time but to us, that time is the most important thing in the universe which I think blinds us a bit as to worrying about the why and how rather than just enjoying the ride.
I don't worry about it but am fascinated by it. And to me believing in God does not impede me from enjoying my time here either. I used to think it did, but not so much anymore.

MalkinIsMyHomeboy
Posts: 29559
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:45 pm
Location: “MIMH is almost always correct” -ulf

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed May 03, 2023 10:45 am

Source of the post So the big bang was one shot, and that shot just so happened to be the Goldilocks shot?
No clue... There's lots of theories and they evolve over time. THE big bang was one shot. Yes. And Earth just so happened to be in the goldilocks zone to support life. There are 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 where it most likely wasn't in the goldilocks zone which is why we're here and not on any of those others.

Have there been previous big bangs? Are there parallel universes? Will the universe contract and start all over again just slightly different? No idea and to be honest, I don't care. We exist for such a miniscule amount of time but to us, that time is the most important thing in the universe which I think blinds us a bit as to worrying about the why and how rather than just enjoying the ride.
this is where I’m at right now. I don’t know, I’ll never know and because of that I don’t care

I mean, the scientific curiosity intrigues me, of course, but there isn’t going to be some earth shattering discovery about the nature of the universe in my lifetime

but yeah, that’s why I’m areligious, ultimately. I’d rather keep an hour more of my time every Sunday

RonnieFranchise
Posts: 12549
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:45 pm
Location: Phil Kessel's name is on the Stanley Cup. Thrice.

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby RonnieFranchise » Wed May 03, 2023 11:03 am

Source of the post The atheist would say that all of these lucky aspects of our solar system are just that... Luck. And I get it.
Yeah... I'm more toward the agnostic side of atheist, but to me it's not so much of a "the conditions here are perfect because a designer made them so just for us" kind of thing. I see it as we're only here because the off chance that the conditions lined up so perfectly in this spot for us to be here.

Imagine slapping your keyboard with both hands. Almost every single time it'll just be a jumble of letters and numbers. Every so often, once in a hundred, thousand, hundreds of thousand, millions of slaps a word will appear. Once in a quadrillion it'll be a word that maybe you intended to slap to existence. That's Earth imo. There are roughly 10^25 planets in the universe as calculated by astrophysicists that orbit stars.

10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 slaps on a key board... in one of them "life" appeared on the screen.
There is a good Bob Newhart routine about if you gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters they would write all the world’s great books.

count2infinity
Posts: 35764
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: All things must pass. With six you get eggroll. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
Contact:

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby count2infinity » Wed May 03, 2023 11:06 am


shafnutz05
Posts: 50596
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:27 pm
Location: A moron or a fascist...but not both.

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby shafnutz05 » Wed May 03, 2023 11:13 am

but yeah, that’s why I’m areligious, ultimately. I’d rather keep an hour more of my time every Sunday
Between Deacons, choir, and other random community service events, I probably spend about 4-5 hours/week either at church or with church-related stuff. This is a relatively new development, I was a sporadic churchgoer until a few years ago. For me, it is time well spent.

CBear3
Posts: 7696
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:02 pm
Location: KC, MO

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby CBear3 » Wed May 03, 2023 11:24 am

for those that are religious…how do you rationalize the universe?


like, we’re all familiar with the concept of intelligent design. Do you subscribe to that? If so, why is Jupiter and other planets in our solar system a thing? why are galaxies that humans will never be able to reach a thing?
The design of the solar system, and what I know about the countless perfect coincidences that all led to Earth being a perfect home for us, is one of the reasons for my faith, actually. If it wasn't for Jupiter and Saturn, Earth would have been blasted out of the solar system by a rogue meteoroid or comet millions of years ago. They essentially act to stabilize our solar system.

There are dozens and dozens of fortunate facts and things that happened over millions of years that have made Earth/our solar system an improbably safe little corner of the galaxy.

Even things like the Moon being 400x smaller than the Sun but being 400x closer so it's exactly the same size... That stuff fascinates me. The atheist would say that all of these lucky aspects of our solar system are just that... Luck. And I get it.
Ahh, but if I were designing the universe for my chosen people why did I need to create comets or meteors that could hurt them in the first place? I suppose one might argue it's to show us that He protects us.
Honestly, it's one of those subjects where I don't feel the need to ask "Why God?" I can absolutely create a satisfactory answer, but it's just vague conjecture in the end because we know so little about the greater universe.

Kaiser
Posts: 5414
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 10:35 pm
Location: In these uncertain times

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby Kaiser » Wed May 03, 2023 11:31 am

If you start from "The universe was created" and then try to build science around it, it won't make sense unless you accept at some point that God did it. There are many more (big numbers) planets that cannot be habitable by life as we know it. Too close to the star, too far from the star, too many stars(the majority of stars are in binary systems), missing organic material, you name it. There are also moons which I expect outnumber the planets, that could have conditions for life, and we have a few here that may very well have something squirming under the ice. I wouldn't say infinite anything, because the observable universe is too old and large for us to see all of it, which also includes regions that also started at the big bang and move ever farther away from our personal horizon on Earth.

This is assuming the big bang did begin time and space, which I find dubious. At every turn of discovery we find that we are smaller. Humans thought we were the only solar system, then the only galaxy, then they decided that absolutely everything in all of reality came from one moment. For real B? We're just going to hammer that stake in because we can't see past it? Taking into account that we seem to throw "infinite" at everything beyond our experience, I'd rather explore the idea that the big bang was merely one big bang of many. Since we can't observe anything beyond it, the idea that it created everything seems as lazy as the idea that God just made everything perfect for us.

As a thought experiment(and I'm not trying to sound as smug as this will appear), Try starting from the idea that Earth is just a lump of stuff floating with all the other lumps of stuff. Completely inconsequential, just like everything else. Earth isn't important, the laws of physics are unimportant, even life is unimportant, no matter how much people would like to believe that the purpose of reality is somehow built around themselves. That a tornado on Earth that destroys your entire family and property is as important as fire ants tearing apart a grasshopper...totally irrelevant. That life beginning on Earth is as important as a black hole swallowing everything within its influence and creating a 5-billion star galaxy with everything you could imagine within it...totally irrelevant. That just because we happen to be here now doesn't mean anything, all of the advances in organic chemistry on Earth, to include the miniscule amount of it that we call human history, that we look back on with pride can be instantly erased with nobody left to remember it. There might be a God, there might not be. If there is, it's just as likely that he/she just happened to stop in our section of the infinite, took a piss on a rock, and seeded our observable universe with everything we see, like the grass growing a little longer around the dump your dog took in the yard.

count2infinity
Posts: 35764
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: All things must pass. With six you get eggroll. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
Contact:

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby count2infinity » Wed May 03, 2023 12:09 pm

Source of the post Completely inconsequential
I realize how utterly inconsequential I am, just when it comes to Centre County. Let alone PA. Let alone the USA. Let alone North America. Let alone the world. Let alone the solar system. Let alone the galaxy. Let alone the universe. I am nothing but a speck. And I'm happy about it.

Kane
Posts: 5188
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:31 pm
Location: Stavromula Beta

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby Kane » Wed May 03, 2023 12:21 pm

Image

MalkinIsMyHomeboy
Posts: 29559
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:45 pm
Location: “MIMH is almost always correct” -ulf

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Wed May 03, 2023 12:22 pm

Source of the post Completely inconsequential
I realize how utterly inconsequential I am, just when it comes to Centre County. Let alone PA. Let alone the USA. Let alone North America. Let alone the world. Let alone the solar system. Let alone the galaxy. Let alone the universe. I am nothing but a speck. And I'm happy about it.
you’re missing 5AF on this list :slug:

count2infinity
Posts: 35764
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: All things must pass. With six you get eggroll. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
Contact:

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby count2infinity » Wed May 03, 2023 12:25 pm

I am the creator, dummy.

count2infinity
Posts: 35764
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:06 pm
Location: All things must pass. With six you get eggroll. No matter how thin you slice it, it's still baloney.
Contact:

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby count2infinity » Tue Dec 19, 2023 8:10 am

https://www.reuters.com/world/vatican-a ... 023-12-18/

I'm a bit confused about what this actually does... when I saw the headline, I was like "Whoa... the catholic church is marrying gay couples now?!?!" Then I read and no, it's not marrying them. It still doesn't approve of that. Nor does it approve of same sex... activities. It's allowing priests to bless same sex couples, provided it's not a part of regular church activities.

So I guess when priests hear a gay man sneeze, they're allowed to say "bless you" now?

RonnieFranchise
Posts: 12549
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:45 pm
Location: Phil Kessel's name is on the Stanley Cup. Thrice.

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby RonnieFranchise » Wed Dec 20, 2023 9:33 pm

Bless you, but keep your genitals to yourselves or you're going to hell.

crusherstasiak
Posts: 12628
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 7:16 pm

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby crusherstasiak » Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:30 am

https://www.reuters.com/world/vatican-a ... 023-12-18/

I'm a bit confused about what this actually does... when I saw the headline, I was like "Whoa... the catholic church is marrying gay couples now?!?!" Then I read and no, it's not marrying them. It still doesn't approve of that. Nor does it approve of same sex... activities. It's allowing priests to bless same sex couples, provided it's not a part of regular church activities.

So I guess when priests hear a gay man sneeze, they're allowed to say "bless you" now?
low hanging fruit post
diddle little boys and touch their genitals -as long as you're ordained- and you'll need a suitcase for your move to another parish

Freddy Rumsen
Posts: 35315
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2015 11:50 am
Location: "Order is the only possibility of rest." -- Wendell Berry

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby Freddy Rumsen » Tue Jan 16, 2024 2:37 pm

I'll save my dissention on Freddy's Jesus takes for some day I want to get into the weeds, and it should probably be in the Religion thread so the atheists in here don't get rowdy. nocera's comment along with the addition that the Gospel's had to go through translation certainly leaves wiggle room for "formulating a Jesus."
The translation stuff is way overplayed, imo. There are some folks who think Bible translation is like a game of telephone, when no ancient manuscripts were thought to be handed down in that way. Another aspect of this of course is that there is a stream of thought that believes the Gospels were initially written in Aramaic and then translated to Greek, which would then make any Latin, English, or Swahili be third generation translations. However, there is no evidence that the NT that we have now was originally in Aramaic. There would be tell tale signs in the Greek manuscripts we have (like transliterations when a word doesn't really have a coherent partner in the language being translated to).

The consistency of the Greek manuscripts from the 2nd Century (and we have fragments from that early) on illustrate that fact as well. There is far more unanimity among Biblical books, then Herodotus or Strabo for instance, or Cicero and Virgil.

eddy
Posts: 22355
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:49 am
Location: Emmet's barn loft

Religion Discussion Thread

Postby eddy » Tue Jan 16, 2024 3:09 pm

I feel like a lot of people use religion as a safety net. It's comfort food for them. I can understand and appreciate that. It's like meditation or listening to music. I would never fault someone for doing something that makes them feel safe and comforted. That part of religion I can understand. Unfortunately that's just one part of it. So, while I still think the world would be a better place without religion and everyone was just kind to each other, I know that's never going to happen.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: faftorial, meow, Pavel Bure, skullman80 and 341 guests