Religion Discussion Thread

[shmenguin]

No. It's simply that if anything is perfect -- complete -- flawless -- then that thing would have no desire -- no need -- to do anything. There would be nothing beyond its completeness.

My belief is that God didn't need to create humanity. He wanted to create humanity to share in the relationship that he shares with the Son and Holy Spirit. We are the extension of that love/relationship. We f'ed it up, but he wanted to fix it.

But why would anything that is perfect have a want?

That means that there is something lacking which it wants to rectify or improve. No perfect, complete, flawless thing would have anything lacking and therefore would have no wants.

You're assuming this want is coming from a lack of something, rather than a desire to give.

pretty sure his point also eliminates the word "desire". there is no such thing as desire for a perfect god.

[redwill]

No. It's simply that if anything is perfect -- complete -- flawless -- then that thing would have no desire -- no need -- to do anything. There would be nothing beyond its completeness.

My belief is that God didn't need to create humanity. He wanted to create humanity to share in the relationship that he shares with the Son and Holy Spirit. We are the extension of that love/relationship. We f'ed it up, but he wanted to fix it.

But why would anything that is perfect have a want?

That means that there is something lacking which it wants to rectify or improve. No perfect, complete, flawless thing would have anything lacking and therefore would have no wants.

You're assuming this want is coming from a lack of something, rather than a desire to give.

Do you differentiate between a "want" and a "desire"?

[Freddy Rumsen]

I don't know what a "combox" is.

I had to Google "aseity":

Aseity (from Latin a "from" and se "self", plus -ity) is the property by which a being exists in and of itself, from itself, or exists as so-and-such of and from itself

Combox = comment box

Here is a decent intro to the idea

https://youtu.be/gUxmi-BQVwA

[columbia]

Assuming that the universe is indeed 13-14 billion years old, it seems reasonably plausible that it's either part of a multiverse or on a permanent loop.
Or both.

And there are lots of aliens, but we'll never meet them.

[shmenguin]

And there are lots of aliens, but we'll never meet them.

i know...trump, right?

[robbiestoupe]

i actually find the notion of an imperfect god comforting. because no doi he's imperfect (africa, amiright). but more so, my 2nd favorite dumb optimistic theory of the universe is that god is debugging his own program. and then running it over and over to find more glitches until they're all snuffed out. maybe he tried the whole "create the universe" thing many many times before even figuring out how to create life. and then he created life but couldn't figure out the recipe for a human. then he figured that out, but couldn't figure out how to design humans so they don't completely wipe each other out the first chance they get. then he figured THAT out, but he still hasn't made it all work without everyone getting cancer eventually.

So each big bang would ultimately be a reboot, more refined than the last, until we finally get our heaven on earth. i mean...obviously we're stuck in that cancer version, so this is of no practical utility. but i like to think that clones of me and my family are also prospering in that utopia version.

Surprisingly, I've thought of similar scenarios to this. I don't believe God is imperfect, but there is the possibility this isn't the first iteration of life on earth as we know it. If free will is a thing (and I believe it is), perhaps a previous version of what we are experiencing now already happened, there was a gathering of the souls, the old heavens and earth destroyed, and a new heaven and earth created. We never lost our free will, so sometime along the "reign with God forever and ever" our souls became greedy and we sinned. Back to hell on earth as we now know it. The cycle repeats many times.

It would help explain why the Bible says the earth is only 6000 years old if calculated according to lineage, but we see fossils from millions of years ago. It would also align slightly with reincarnation. But it doesn't address the only begotten Son conundrum. God ain't sending his Son more than once. Maybe he had a different saving mechanism for the other iterations. Probably not, which is why I don't really subscribe to this theory.

[shmenguin]

i actually find the notion of an imperfect god comforting. because no doi he's imperfect (africa, amiright). but more so, my 2nd favorite dumb optimistic theory of the universe is that god is debugging his own program. and then running it over and over to find more glitches until they're all snuffed out. maybe he tried the whole "create the universe" thing many many times before even figuring out how to create life. and then he created life but couldn't figure out the recipe for a human. then he figured that out, but couldn't figure out how to design humans so they don't completely wipe each other out the first chance they get. then he figured THAT out, but he still hasn't made it all work without everyone getting cancer eventually.

So each big bang would ultimately be a reboot, more refined than the last, until we finally get our heaven on earth. i mean...obviously we're stuck in that cancer version, so this is of no practical utility. but i like to think that clones of me and my family are also prospering in that utopia version.

Surprisingly, I've thought of similar scenarios to this. I don't believe God is imperfect, but there is the possibility this isn't the first iteration of life on earth as we know it. If free will is a thing (and I believe it is), perhaps a previous version of what we are experiencing now already happened, there was a gathering of the souls, the old heavens and earth destroyed, and a new heaven and earth created. We never lost our free will, so sometime along the "reign with God forever and ever" our souls became greedy and we sinned. Back to hell on earth as we now know it. The cycle repeats many times.

It would help explain why the Bible says the earth is only 6000 years old if calculated according to lineage, but we see fossils from millions of years ago. It would also align slightly with reincarnation. But it doesn't address the only begotten Son conundrum. God ain't sending his Son more than once. Maybe he had a different saving mechanism for the other iterations. Probably not, which is why I don't really subscribe to this theory.

this is..not so similar to my scenario

[robbiestoupe]

Source of the post pretty sure his point also eliminates the word "desire". there is no such thing as desire for a perfect god.

Source of the post Do you differentiate between a "want" and a "desire"?

The way redwill posted his argument, he made it seem as if a want was something a perfect deity could just speak into existence, mainly out of a selfish impulse. I was trying to find a word to describe God's unselfish nature to share what he has with others. Either way, even if A) is correct, God spoke his want (to share his love) into existence, therefore he has no more wants.

I really don't feel like reading into Jainism and finding out their reasoning behind why they think a perfect deity has no want. Freddy already said it's been addressed, so I'll side with him since I am in no way a scholar in this stuff.

[robbiestoupe]

Source of the post this is..not so similar to my scenario

It has a cycle. That's similar

[columbia]

Why the catch of having to believe? Shouldn't said gift be unconditional?

[grunthy]

And there are lots of aliens, but we'll never meet them.

i know...trump, right?

I really thought with him being president we would find out about if aliens have visited us or not. I’m disappointed.

[redwill]

Here is a decent intro to the idea

https://youtu.be/gUxmi-BQVwA

I know I'm gonna come off as a *****, but I honestly have to ask ... is this is the sort of thing that justifies your belief?

[robbiestoupe]

Why the catch of having to believe? Shouldn't said gift be unconditional?

God: Here, take this free ticket for entry into eternal bliss
columbia: you don't exist, therefore there is no ticket
columbia dies
God: Sorry, can't come in since you didn't take the free ticket
columbia: ???

[count2infinity]

Why the catch of having to believe? Shouldn't said gift be unconditional?

God: Here, take this free ticket for entry into eternal bliss
columbia: you don't exist, therefore there is no ticket
columbia dies
God: Sorry, can't come in since you didn't take the free ticket
columbia: ???

When I see a child that acts out, I blame the parents, not the kid.

[columbia]

Parents don’t have conditional love for their children.

[Willie Kool]

Parents don’t have conditional love for their children.

Oh, really? Tell that to a child that was disowned because of their beliefs or sexual orientation...

[grunthy]

Why the catch of having to believe? Shouldn't said gift be unconditional?

God: Here, take this free ticket for entry into eternal bliss
columbia: you don't exist, therefore there is no ticket
columbia dies
God: Sorry, can't come in since you didn't take the free ticket
columbia: ???

When I see a child that acts out, I blame the parents, not the kid.

You can be a good parent and give your kids all the tools to succeed, and your kid can still choose the wrong path.

[count2infinity]

Not if I was all powerful!

[robbiestoupe]

Why the catch of having to believe? Shouldn't said gift be unconditional?

God: Here, take this free ticket for entry into eternal bliss
columbia: you don't exist, therefore there is no ticket
columbia dies
God: Sorry, can't come in since you didn't take the free ticket
columbia: ???

When I see a child that acts out, I blame the parents, not the kid.

Come back and read this when you become a daddy.

[grunthy]

Not if I was all powerful!

If you are given free will then yes they can choose wrong. I’m sure you as a parent won’t force your kid to do everything you want.

[columbia]

Parents don’t have conditional love for their children.

Oh, really? Tell that to a child that was disowned because of their beliefs or sexual orientation...

I'm assuming that robbiestoupe 's love for his children is unconditional - and all of the other parents here too.

[count2infinity]

Not if I was all powerful!

If you are given free will then yes they can choose wrong. I’m sure you as a parent won’t force your kid to do everything you want.

I guess this is a separate conversation, but I personally don't see how an all powerful, all knowing God and free will can co-exist.

[shmenguin]

Why the catch of having to believe? Shouldn't said gift be unconditional?

God: Here, take this free ticket for entry into eternal bliss
columbia: you don't exist, therefore there is no ticket
columbia dies
God: Sorry, can't come in since you didn't take the free ticket
columbia: ???

i too have wondered why god created columbia in the first place

[robbiestoupe]

Parents don’t have conditional love for their children.

Oh, really? Tell that to a child that was disowned because of their beliefs or sexual orientation...

I'm assuming that robbiestoupe 's love for his children is unconditional - and all of the other parents here too.

H E double hockey sticks no. I wish.

[grunthy]

Parents don’t have conditional love for their children.

Oh, really? Tell that to a child that was disowned because of their beliefs or sexual orientation...

I'm assuming that robbiestoupe 's love for his children is unconditional - and all of the other parents here too.

H E double hockey sticks no. I wish.

Wait... what?