Religion Discussion Thread

Kaiser
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Postby Kaiser » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:44 pm

I don't believe that his post implied a belief in (new Earth) creationism.
Bingo. The idea that the universe was designed intelligently is hardly antithetical to the concept of evolution or the Big Bang. I share Robbie's view. I look at the majesty of the universe, and the Earth itself, and look at how utterly perfect so many things are, and it's hard for me to imagine that everything is that way just by chance.
There are multitudes of perfect conditions concerning Earth, at least as far as we're concerned. It is because of those conditions that we appear now. Those conditions were cultivated by the surrounding universe, the life that came before us, the moon and the way it came to be, the distance from the sun, our axis and rotation that gives us a heat gradient.
All of these things work out to a place that supports our type of life, which is why we have evolved to be harmonious with it. If the conditions were different, we would be different, or not exist. Our form of life has nothing to do with "perfect" conditions, we are this way because of the conditions we have.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:44 pm

has anyone ever released a revised bible that strips out everything that is widely considered (by christians) to be either a metaphor or just plain nonsense? jesus would generally fall under this category, according to pretty much every christian i know, but we can leave him in there.
Most Christians you know think that the account of Jesus' birth, life, and death is nonsense? I hate to be that guy, but they are not real Christians :lol:
i know many churchgoers. they generally do not believe that jesus is the son of god. they think he exists, and that he was a good dude, though. the irony of this belief, of course, is that jesus is either holy, a con man or someone suffering from a severe mental condition like schizophrenia. and honestly if you bring in any grounded reasoning into the equation, it's definitely that last one. so what these people are positing is not what they think they're positing.

whether or not that disqualifies them from Christianity... i figure you need all the members you can get
I am far from the most devout Christian out there...I'd probably be referred to as a "casual". That said, these churchgoers you know are way off the reservation. The one fundamental tenet of the CHRISTian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our salvation is through Him. Honestly, if that's really what they believe, why don't they just go to one of those unitarian universalist churches instead? It would probably be more their speed.

It has nothing to do with being "disqualifed" from Christianity. That's like saying you are a vegetarian and you eat beef, pork, lamb, and chicken.

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Postby dodint » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:44 pm

^^^ This guy gets it.

*edit* Not that guy, the guy before him.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:58 pm

I am far from the most devout Christian out there...I'd probably be referred to as a "casual". That said, these churchgoers you know are way off the reservation. The one fundamental tenet of the CHRISTian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our salvation is through Him. Honestly, if that's really what they believe, why don't they just go to one of those unitarian universalist churches instead? It would probably be more their speed.
people go to catholic church as adults because they went as children. this applies to the devout and the casual. a shift to one of these abstract churches would be great, but it's not so easy for people raised catholic (or anyone, really) to abandon what you know.

it's surprising that this is such a novel concept. i thought the conceit of modern day Christianity was that people don't actually believe the details, but they do think having spirituality in their life is important. and because of nostalgia and familiarity/friendliness, a christian church ticks the box.

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Postby robbiestoupe » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:59 pm

Addressing Kaiser's astonishment that religion is still a thing. I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum where I'm astonished that so many non-believers buy into the "God doesn't exist" theory. The more I understand the human body, animal interaction, outer space, etc. the more I am baffled that people believe that these things came to be just by chance. It absolutely astounds me. Some of the smartest people the world has ever seen, and the best thing they can come up with is more unbelievable than a miracle itself.
I'd love hear what you've seen about the universe and animals that makes intelligent design more plausible that either a cyclical natural "creation"
or eternal expansion via the big bang. This by the way is THE question I'm most interested in when I talk to creationists.
I believe in micro evolution, not macro evolution. I was just thinking about this the other day: take for instance a mother, whether it be an animal or a human. When the mother has a baby, its mammary glands produce milk. This is an essential part of animal life. Taking humans out of the equation, without mother's milk, the baby will not survive.

Macro evolution teaches me that over time, a species evolved to contain these glands, as well as produce a substance suitable for its species survival. Obviously the species didn't develop these glands overnight. It took thousands, maybe millions of years to develop. Where is this transition period, and how does the species survive during this transition? When did the species "decide" that milk would be its sustenance rather than (whatever the old method was)? I see a lack of proof of transitional development, let alone transitional species in archaeological findings. It's there, but not on a large enough scale to convince me macro evolution is a thing. I'm only talking about one thing here, not to mention the millions of other developments in macro evolution that must have happened in synchronicity to get us from point A (single cell organism) to point B (humans).

That's just the science side of it all. As shafnutz alluded to, the majesty and beauty of the universe holds no purpose, yet it exists. Why?

I also cannot fathom how a big bang could create a universe in such order, yet coincidentally in such chaos, without intelligent design. How many big bangs must there have been before THE Big Bang actually worked? Where there big bangs that were soooooo freaking close, but just didn't get it? Were there bb's that were perfect in constructing a universe full of planets and stars, but failed to make any life forms? Being that THE BIG BANG was a 1 in a ~quadrillion chance, there have to be other, observable, parallel universes where other big bangs existed. Otherwise, you're 1/1,000,000,000,000 chance is more like 1/10^10^10^10 and so on shot that the very first and very only big bang worked. If you're going to believe that, you might was well believe it was an intelligent designer behind the whole charade.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:01 pm

There are multitudes of perfect conditions concerning Earth, at least as far as we're concerned. It is because of those conditions that we appear now. Those conditions were cultivated by the surrounding universe, the life that came before us, the moon and the way it came to be, the distance from the sun, our axis and rotation that gives us a heat gradient.
All of these things work out to a place that supports our type of life, which is why we have evolved to be harmonious with it. If the conditions were different, we would be different, or not exist. Our form of life has nothing to do with "perfect" conditions, we are this way because of the conditions we have.
That's a fair point. I guess beyond that, one of the other problems I have with the total atheist viewpoint is the idea that the Big Bang just was. Why did the universe even exist in the first place? It was just...there?

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:07 pm

There are multitudes of perfect conditions concerning Earth, at least as far as we're concerned. It is because of those conditions that we appear now. Those conditions were cultivated by the surrounding universe, the life that came before us, the moon and the way it came to be, the distance from the sun, our axis and rotation that gives us a heat gradient.
All of these things work out to a place that supports our type of life, which is why we have evolved to be harmonious with it. If the conditions were different, we would be different, or not exist. Our form of life has nothing to do with "perfect" conditions, we are this way because of the conditions we have.
That's a fair point. I guess beyond that, one of the other problems I have with the total atheist viewpoint is the idea that the Big Bang just was. Why did the universe even exist in the first place? It was just...there?
if god is the creator, then the same question is posed to you. was he just...there?

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:09 pm

I also cannot fathom how a big bang could create a universe in such order, yet coincidentally in such chaos, without intelligent design. How many big bangs must there have been before THE Big Bang actually worked? Where there big bangs that were soooooo freaking close, but just didn't get it? Were there bb's that were perfect in constructing a universe full of planets and stars, but failed to make any life forms? Being that THE BIG BANG was a 1 in a ~quadrillion chance, there have to be other, observable, parallel universes where other big bangs existed. Otherwise, you're 1/1,000,000,000,000 chance is more like 1/10^10^10^10 and so on shot that the very first and very only big bang worked. If you're going to believe that, you might was well believe it was an intelligent designer behind the whole charade.
if you don't believe in time (as we perceive it), the difference between one big bang cycle of expansion/collapse and 10 quadrillion cycles isn't really anything.

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Postby slappybrown » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:10 pm

I am far from the most devout Christian out there...I'd probably be referred to as a "casual". That said, these churchgoers you know are way off the reservation. The one fundamental tenet of the CHRISTian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our salvation is through Him. Honestly, if that's really what they believe, why don't they just go to one of those unitarian universalist churches instead? It would probably be more their speed.
people go to catholic church as adults because they went as children. this applies to the devout and the casual. a shift to one of these abstract churches would be great, but it's not so easy for people raised catholic (or anyone, really) to abandon what you know.

it's surprising that this is such a novel concept. i thought the conceit of modern day Christianity was that people don't actually believe the details, but they do think having spirituality in their life is important. and because of nostalgia and familiarity/friendliness, a christian church ticks the box.
So as someone who is Catholic culturally rather than in any substantive way at this point, leaving out the attendant pieces of the faith -- e.g., confession and forgiveness of sins by a Priest, and even transubstantiation -- is one thing, but what you're talking about is the absolute core of the process. Going to Catholic mass regularly is a helluva of an investment if you're going to deny this specific point.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:11 pm

it's surprising that this is such a novel concept. i thought the conceit of modern day Christianity was that people don't actually believe the details, but they do think having spirituality in their life is important. and because of nostalgia and familiarity/friendliness, a christian church ticks the box.
There are plenty of "cultural Catholics" out there, no doubt. My point was, you cannot be a Christian and not believe in the divine nature of Jesus Christ. Even for those that claim to be a 'follower of Jesus', the most detailed record we have of his life, obviously, is in the Bible. And to your point, if they believe that he shared good values, but think he wasn't the Son of God and didn't die on the cross for our sins, then they are basically implying he was either fleecing people or, as you say, schizophrenic. And if that's the case, how can they purport to follow him then?

I can't stand the "You're not a REAL Christian" stuff most of the time, but the above is pretty fair. Your friends are churchgoers, not Christians.

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Postby grunthy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:13 pm

There are multitudes of perfect conditions concerning Earth, at least as far as we're concerned. It is because of those conditions that we appear now. Those conditions were cultivated by the surrounding universe, the life that came before us, the moon and the way it came to be, the distance from the sun, our axis and rotation that gives us a heat gradient.
All of these things work out to a place that supports our type of life, which is why we have evolved to be harmonious with it. If the conditions were different, we would be different, or not exist. Our form of life has nothing to do with "perfect" conditions, we are this way because of the conditions we have.
That's a fair point. I guess beyond that, one of the other problems I have with the total atheist viewpoint is the idea that the Big Bang just was. Why did the universe even exist in the first place? It was just...there?
if god is the creator, then the same question is posed to you. was he just...there?
Both take a leap of faith. It’s just which side do you leap towards.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:13 pm

if god is the creator, then the same question is posed to you. was he just...there?
And there's where it comes down to faith, doesn't it :wink: But IMO, the argument that the universe just "was" is no more valid or believable than the argument that it was designed.

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Postby robbiestoupe » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:15 pm

I don't believe in time other than a man-made concept to measure something. Same is true of math, physics, language, etc. My question is where are the other "failed" big bangs? Is the universe full of infinite particles and energy to create these big bangs? Or are you saying a big bang occurs, everything collapses back into its original form, and re-bangs? A rebound-rebang if you will?

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:23 pm

I don't believe in time other than a man-made concept to measure something. Same is true of math, physics, language, etc. My question is where are the other "failed" big bangs? Is the universe full of infinite particles and energy to create these big bangs? Or are you saying a big bang occurs, everything collapses back into its original form, and re-bangs? A rebound-rebang if you will?
it's a fairly common theory. and one that my tiny non-scientist brain subscribes to. eventually all the large masses in space will all get pulled toward each other by gravity, leaving you with one black hole that contains all the matter in the universe. the kitchen eventually gets to hot and there you go. another big bang.

my own "faith" is that the universe expands and collapses the exact same way over and over again. so we are all going to live the exact same life every time there's a cycle. and absent of consciousness, we don't notice the billions of years in between our death and rebirth.

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Postby Kaiser » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:23 pm

This is going to take more than i can stomach typing on my phone, so bbl.

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Postby slappybrown » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:24 pm

I don't believe in time other than a man-made concept to measure something. Same is true of math, physics, language, etc. My question is where are the other "failed" big bangs? Is the universe full of infinite particles and energy to create these big bangs? Or are you saying a big bang occurs, everything collapses back into its original form, and re-bangs? A rebound-rebang if you will?
it's a fairly common theory. and one that my tiny non-scientist brain subscribes to. eventually all the large masses in space will all get pulled toward each other by gravity, leaving you with one black hole that contains all the matter in the universe. the kitchen eventually gets to hot and there you go. another big bang.

my own "faith" is that the universe expands and collapses the exact same way over and over again. so we are all going to live the exact same life every time there's a cycle. and absent of consciousness, we don't notice the billions of years in between our death and rebirth.
Is that you Rust Cohle

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Postby dodint » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:25 pm

I don't believe in time other than a man-made concept to measure something. Same is true of math, physics, language, etc. My question is where are the other "failed" big bangs? Is the universe full of infinite particles and energy to create these big bangs? Or are you saying a big bang occurs, everything collapses back into its original form, and re-bangs? A rebound-rebang if you will?
it's a fairly common theory. and one that my tiny non-scientist brain subscribes to. eventually all the large masses in space will all get pulled toward each other by gravity, leaving you with one black hole that contains all the matter in the universe. the kitchen eventually gets to hot and there you go. another big bang.

my own "faith" is that the universe expands and collapses the exact same way over and over again. so we are all going to live the exact same life every time there's a cycle. and absent of consciousness, we don't notice the billions of years in between our death and rebirth.
The mechanics are right but the idea that every cycle is identical is improbable and, to me, an odd assertion.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:26 pm

I am far from the most devout Christian out there...I'd probably be referred to as a "casual". That said, these churchgoers you know are way off the reservation. The one fundamental tenet of the CHRISTian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our salvation is through Him. Honestly, if that's really what they believe, why don't they just go to one of those unitarian universalist churches instead? It would probably be more their speed.
people go to catholic church as adults because they went as children. this applies to the devout and the casual. a shift to one of these abstract churches would be great, but it's not so easy for people raised catholic (or anyone, really) to abandon what you know.

it's surprising that this is such a novel concept. i thought the conceit of modern day Christianity was that people don't actually believe the details, but they do think having spirituality in their life is important. and because of nostalgia and familiarity/friendliness, a christian church ticks the box.
So as someone who is Catholic culturally rather than in any substantive way at this point, leaving out the attendant pieces of the faith -- e.g., confession and forgiveness of sins by a Priest, and even transubstantiation -- is one thing, but what you're talking about is the absolute core of the process. Going to Catholic mass regularly is a helluva of an investment if you're going to deny this specific point.
define "process". getting dressed up and driving to a place? saying the prayers? it's pretty easy to go be a catholic on sunday mornings and then not think of jesus the other 167 hours in your week.

i also am fine with re-labeling these people as "churchgoers" rather than "christians".

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Postby robbiestoupe » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:29 pm

I don't believe in time other than a man-made concept to measure something. Same is true of math, physics, language, etc. My question is where are the other "failed" big bangs? Is the universe full of infinite particles and energy to create these big bangs? Or are you saying a big bang occurs, everything collapses back into its original form, and re-bangs? A rebound-rebang if you will?
it's a fairly common theory. and one that my tiny non-scientist brain subscribes to. eventually all the large masses in space will all get pulled toward each other by gravity, leaving you with one black hole that contains all the matter in the universe. the kitchen eventually gets to hot and there you go. another big bang.

my own "faith" is that the universe expands and collapses the exact same way over and over again. so we are all going to live the exact same life every time there's a cycle. and absent of consciousness, we don't notice the billions of years in between our death and rebirth.
Did you ever read Blake Crouch's Dark Matter? Slightly different concept, similar results.

Your theory is missing one slight adjustment: entropy. After each big bang, you're going to have less and less mass to contend with. There are losses due to heat, etc. that you won't have the next time around. Eventually, your big bang will be a little pop.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:30 pm

The mechanics are right but the idea that every cycle is identical is improbable and, to me, an odd assertion.
it's hopeful. nothing more.

the big bang happened, and potentially one single asymmetry in the otherwise even disbursement of hydrogen atoms is how anything exists in the first place. if everything boils down to a singularity, then i'm gonna take that and run with the notion that it is boiled down into a uniform seed and that seed always produces the same plant.

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Postby slappybrown » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:30 pm

I am far from the most devout Christian out there...I'd probably be referred to as a "casual". That said, these churchgoers you know are way off the reservation. The one fundamental tenet of the CHRISTian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our salvation is through Him. Honestly, if that's really what they believe, why don't they just go to one of those unitarian universalist churches instead? It would probably be more their speed.
people go to catholic church as adults because they went as children. this applies to the devout and the casual. a shift to one of these abstract churches would be great, but it's not so easy for people raised catholic (or anyone, really) to abandon what you know.

it's surprising that this is such a novel concept. i thought the conceit of modern day Christianity was that people don't actually believe the details, but they do think having spirituality in their life is important. and because of nostalgia and familiarity/friendliness, a christian church ticks the box.
So as someone who is Catholic culturally rather than in any substantive way at this point, leaving out the attendant pieces of the faith -- e.g., confession and forgiveness of sins by a Priest, and even transubstantiation -- is one thing, but what you're talking about is the absolute core of the process. Going to Catholic mass regularly is a helluva of an investment if you're going to deny this specific point.
define "process". getting dressed up and driving to a place? saying the prayers? it's pretty easy to go be a catholic on sunday mornings and then not think of jesus the other 167 hours in your week.

i also am fine with re-labeling these people as "churchgoers" rather than "christians".
I think the issue is more with your assertion that you know "many" churchgoers and that they generally do not believe in Jesus as God. But maybe many means 7 and we're making something out of nothing. Pure speculation on my part, but I would say that fewer than 10% of regular adult churchgoers fall into the category you've described.

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Postby dodint » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:32 pm

The mechanics are right but the idea that every cycle is identical is improbable and, to me, an odd assertion.
it's hopeful. nothing more.

the big bang happened, and potentially one single asymmetry in the otherwise even disbursement of hydrogen atoms is how anything exists in the first place. if everything boils down to a singularity, then i'm gonna take that and run with the notion that it is boiled down into a uniform seed and that seed always produces the same plant.
But my free will! Noooooooooooooooo!

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:35 pm

I am far from the most devout Christian out there...I'd probably be referred to as a "casual". That said, these churchgoers you know are way off the reservation. The one fundamental tenet of the CHRISTian faith is that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and our salvation is through Him. Honestly, if that's really what they believe, why don't they just go to one of those unitarian universalist churches instead? It would probably be more their speed.
people go to catholic church as adults because they went as children. this applies to the devout and the casual. a shift to one of these abstract churches would be great, but it's not so easy for people raised catholic (or anyone, really) to abandon what you know.

it's surprising that this is such a novel concept. i thought the conceit of modern day Christianity was that people don't actually believe the details, but they do think having spirituality in their life is important. and because of nostalgia and familiarity/friendliness, a christian church ticks the box.
So as someone who is Catholic culturally rather than in any substantive way at this point, leaving out the attendant pieces of the faith -- e.g., confession and forgiveness of sins by a Priest, and even transubstantiation -- is one thing, but what you're talking about is the absolute core of the process. Going to Catholic mass regularly is a helluva of an investment if you're going to deny this specific point.
define "process". getting dressed up and driving to a place? saying the prayers? it's pretty easy to go be a catholic on sunday mornings and then not think of jesus the other 167 hours in your week.

i also am fine with re-labeling these people as "churchgoers" rather than "christians".
I think the issue is more with your assertion that you know "many" churchgoers and that they generally do not believe in Jesus as God. But maybe many means 7 and we're making something out of nothing. Pure speculation on my part, but I would say that fewer than 10% of regular adult churchgoers fall into the category you've described.
my "many" is relative to the small social circle i operate in. i didn't mean to pose this as an epidemic.

but let me ask you this. the other 90%...if you sat them down and said, "come on...let's cut the crap. do you REALLY think jesus is god's son?", you don't think that 90 drops to somewhere precipitously lower?

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Postby slappybrown » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:42 pm


my "many" is relative to the small social circle i operate in. i didn't mean to pose this as an epidemic.

but let me ask you this. the other 90%...if you sat them down and said, "come on...let's cut the crap. do you REALLY think jesus is god's son?", you don't think that 90 drops to somewhere precipitously lower?
I think you'll uncover a lot of folks who deep down are basically applying Pascal's wager, sure. Particularly in a standard issue modern American Catholic congregation that lacks the fire and brimstone of evangelical churches.

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Postby Factorial » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:18 pm


Perhaps your idea of perfection is crafted by the things you see around you. If the world had evolved in a different way you'd find beauty in the way you had defined it under those other conditions.
:thumb:

Beauty/perfection etc is in the eye of the beholder.

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