Religion Discussion Thread

Postby **Freddy Rumsen** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:59 am

Roman Catholicism has its own version of post-mortem baptism (though it is not "baptism" in that sense) through the indulgences and other activities that can be purchased/done to help grandma out of purgatory.

Postby **columbia** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:02 pm

Sounds like Kicksave, etc. being freed by this board.

Postby **Avyran** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:02 pm

Mormons get their own planet after death.

I want a planet.

(Edit: Whoops, I was wrong. They don't. I still want a planet.)

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).

Postby **MR25** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:07 pm

Roman Catholicism has its own version of post-mortem baptism (though it is not "baptism" in that sense) through the indulgences and other activities that can be purchased/done to help grandma out of purgatory.

Aside from votive candles (which I don't even think they do anymore), I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, as I haven't seen any of that.

Postby **shafnutz05** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:09 pm

Roman Catholicism has its own version of post-mortem baptism (though it is not "baptism" in that sense) through the indulgences and other activities that can be purchased/done to help grandma out of purgatory.
Aside from votive candles (which I don't even think they do anymore), I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, as I haven't seen any of that.

My wife and I wandered into a Catholic church in Quebec City (mainly because I was desperately trying to find a bathroom

). It was weird walking in there, the place was empty but everything was unlocked--walking into the one back room, there were three different shrines with votive candles in front, with prices for each to light them.

Postby **MR25** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:10 pm

Unless the definition of "indulgences" that I'm thinking of is the medieval one where they had to pay the church to forgive sins.

Postby **Willie Kool** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:19 pm

'As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, The soul from Purgatory springs.'

Postby **MWB** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:24 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).

My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?

Postby **MWB** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:26 pm

So these postmortem baptisms send these perished souls to heaven? Where are they in the meantime? Imagine how awesome that must be to be hanging out wherever--a place not as cool as heaven, I'm sure--and then get teleported to that place in the sky out of the blue.

Purgatory, I assume.

Postby **tifosi77** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:32 pm

...just thinking about child birth and how much of a miracle it is...

Childbirth could not be less miraculous. It's pretty basic biology; in fact, it's almost inevitable.

Postby **tifosi77** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:33 pm

I know that in mormonism baptism is required for salvation. Thus the postmortem baptisms.

My great grandmother died at 98 years of age. If you look her up on ancestry.com (which used to be a front for the LDS church, not sure if it still is) you will find that the woman who was baptized a Roman Catholic in 1898 is somehow listed as a Mormon.

Eff those guys and their magic underpants.

Postby **grunthy** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:34 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).
My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?

Yes but I don't deliberately compare their religion with things like unicorns to specifically incite a response.

Postby **Avyran** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:40 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).
My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?

*Shrug* I mean, I guess so. I would hope not (as they're quite different), but meh. I won't go deeper into Mormon history then.

Postby **count2infinity** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:49 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).
My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?

Yes but I don't deliberately compare their religion with things like unicorns to specifically incite a response.

What about comparing Christianity to any of the other relgions that exist/once existed. Is that okay?

Postby **grunthy** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:55 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).
My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?

Yes but I don't deliberately compare their religion with things like unicorns to specifically incite a response.
What about comparing Christianity to any of the other relgions that exist/once existed. Is that okay?

I didn't say you couldn't compare them together. Just saying when one compares it to things of that nature, like unicorns, people are deliberately trying to get a negative response.

Postby **PFiDC** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:56 pm

From the political thread:

Hmmm... the cake thing is interesting. She offered to make the cakes, just not write hate speech on it. I'm reading in articles that William Jack asked for Bible verses to "Kill all [homophobic slur]" and everything in between, so I'm not sure what he really asked her to put on the cake. Now trying to tie that to a wedding cake discussion we've had before in Indiana... well, I don't know how many weddings you've been to, but rarely do the cakes have writing on them. Her approach was very similar to a suggestion that I offered earlier in the thread. Agree to do the bare minimum to provide the service to that particular customer, but if it goes beyond a cake that you would normally make, then feel free to say no.

It's still a denial of service. So can a religious bake shop refuse to make a same-sex couples cake, but give them ingredients and say "here you go, make it yourself!"
This is why that hypothetical posed by Rick Santorum is apples-oranges. He wondered if a gay baker would be forced to bake a cake for the Westboro Baptist Church that says 'God hate f*gs' absent a RFRA. And I would say that's a very different kettle of fish than simply baking a cake for WBC. One, because it's hate speech and I don't think anyone can be compelled to engage in an expression of hate speech. Two, because as a homosexual, the baker would be forced to disparage himself in preparing the cake. That's a fair bit different from providing a service to someone whose practices you have religious disagreements.
I have to disagree with the last part. The religious business owner forced to make a cake for a ceremony they think is against their religion would also be disparaging to their faith which, in most cases I would assume, is very very near and dear to them. We are warned against contributing or participating in ceremonies, events, rituals, etc. which go against our faith. Telling them "Well you're just going to have to evolve your religious beliefs" is a bit harsh. Remember, were I a baker, I would make the gay cake no questions asked.
I guess the real question is twofold: As I recall, the first miracle Jesus performed was turning water into wine at a wedding. If it had been a gay wedding; 1) would he and Mary have even gone? and 2) if he had, would he have said, "Don't give any of the wine to the married couple"?

The first miracle that Jesus performed was at a wedding feast where He turned water into wine. Not only that, He did so toward the end of the reception when everyone had already had enough wine that there was probably more being spilled from cups than drank from them. It's also the time when nobody cared how good the wine was because you couldn't taste the difference anyway. This wasn't lost on the MC of that party. He pulled the groom aside and said, "A host always serves the best wine first. Then, when everyone has had a lot to drink, he brings out the less expensive wine. But you have kept the best until now!" (John 2:10) It should be noted that the only one's who knew of this miracle were Jesus, Mary, the disciples, and the servants.

Drunkenness is warned against 75 times in the Bible. There is more Scripture condemning the use of alcoholic beverages than will be found on the subjects of lying, adultery, swearing, cheating, hypocrisy, pride, or even blasphemy.

If Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding...

...why wouldn't I bake a cake for one?

Love ushers in the presence of God. In that presence, let Him do what He wills.

Postby **CBear3** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:57 pm

So these postmortem baptisms send these perished souls to heaven? Where are they in the meantime? Imagine how awesome that must be to be hanging out wherever--a place not as cool as heaven, I'm sure--and then get teleported to that place in the sky out of the blue.
Purgatory, I assume.

Why do I want to say nowhere? I have a vague recollection that they are in essence asleep, until the rapture. At that time those who have been baptized will rise to be with their Creator.
I could be wrong though...

Postby **MWB** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:58 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).
My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?
*Shrug* I mean, I guess so. I would hope not (as they're quite different), but meh. I won't go deeper into Mormon history then.

Yes, they are quite different. But people who have faith in Mormonism believe it to be true in the same way as Christians believe.

Postby **MWB** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:01 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).
My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?

Yes but I don't deliberately compare their religion with things like unicorns to specifically incite a response.
What about comparing Christianity to any of the other relgions that exist/once existed. Is that okay?
I didn't say you couldn't compare them together. Just saying when one compares it to things of that nature, like unicorns, people are deliberately trying to get a negative response.

Why would you even bring that up right now? It has nothing to do with what is being discussed. It's like you're trying to elicit a response to a response that didn't happen.

Postby **Avyran** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:01 pm

In all seriousness... Mormonism (& Joseph Smith) is.... interesting (to put it positively).
My guess is the things you find "interesting" about Mormonism are in the same vein that some find "interesting" about Christianity. Wouldn't you think?
*Shrug* I mean, I guess so. I would hope not (as they're quite different), but meh. I won't go deeper into Mormon history then.
Yes, they are quite different. But people who have faith in Mormonism believe it to be true in the same way as Christians believe.

I'd somewhat disagree with that (specifically due to the golden plates), but like I said, I'll drop it.

Postby **PFiDC** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:04 pm

I totally see where MWB is coming from. That doesn't mean I agree with it obviously. People balk at the dead returning to life and that is something that is a fact to me.

Postby **Avyran** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:09 pm

I wasn't trying to compare it to anything. I just find the history of Mormonism strange; I wasn't going to discuss the doctrine at all.

Postby **Clams Herbert** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:09 pm

I totally see where MWB is coming from. That doesn't mean I agree with it obviously. People balk at the dead returning to life and that is something that is a fact to me.

This is too difficult for me to grasp. What makes it fact to you? It'd have to be faith in the Bible being true right?

Postby **PFiDC** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:12 pm

I totally see where MWB is coming from. That doesn't mean I agree with it obviously. People balk at the dead returning to life and that is something that is a fact to me.
This is too difficult for me to grasp. What makes it fact to you? It'd have to be faith in the Bible being true right?

This is akin to redwill's "Why do you believe" question. Will any answer be good enough for you?

Yes, I do believe the Bible is true.

Postby **Clams Herbert** » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:13 pm

I wasn't trying to compare it to anything. I just find the history of Mormonism strange; I wasn't going to discuss the doctrine at all.

Hey, ya won't get any discrimination from me, I think it's ALL crazy

Something else I was mulling over today, kind of related to my earlier post about if your location has much to do with what you believe; don't you find it kind of jarring that so many people can believe so many different things, and you (the royal you) can have that much confidence that yours is the correct way?

I know I've seen people believe all acts of good will count in leading to heaven, but so many people DON'T believe that.

Another thing I was thinking; many do not agree with Islam and will even go so far as to say they hate it. Do you feel the people there are being indoctrinated from a young age to believe in something most Christians would believe to be a "radical" religion? (Assuming you're one to follow the rules in the Quaran to a T)