Religion Discussion Thread

[redwill]

In other words, it makes sense to me that people of faith can be quite offended when questions are posed of them. And it's why I waited for a dozen pages before chiming in on this discussion; things had been progressing quite nicely, and I didn't want to be the one to muck that up by being (or appearing) flippant.

Are you not being patronizing here?

[Solidsnake]

I wonder what myself could be called, I believe in God and Jesus but I don't go to church regularly and I didn't give something up for this past lent,etc I don't adhere to every Christian/Catholic belief, I don't believe in the one in a trillion chance of the big bang, just thinking about child birth and how much of a miracle it is, I firmly believe in a creator

[tifosi77]

I hope not, that's not what I was getting at. Certainly hope it wasn't taken that way.

[tifosi77]

I wonder what myself could be called, I believe in God and Jesus but I don't go to church regularly and I didn't give something up for this past lent,etc I don't adhere to every Christian/Catholic belief, I don't believe in the one in a trillion chance of the big bang, just thinking about child birth and how much of a miracle it is, I firmly believe in a creator

I believe the word you're looking for is 'American'.

Also, if the Big Bang was real..... then, as understood, the probability of it happening was 1.

[redwill]

I hope not, that's not what I was getting at. Certainly hope it wasn't taken that way.

In other words, it makes sense to me that people of faith can be quite offended when questions are posed of them.

That seems quite patronizing, at least in light of the little dance we seem to have to be doing around the sensibilities of some in this thread.

[Freddy Rumsen]

It doesn't bother me in the slightest, tbh. Like I have said four or five times in this thread I think Christianity is perfectly in keeping with reason and logic. I also do not feel the need to be embarrassed by the "hard things" in the Bible.

[Avyran]

OK, Avyran.

Be at peace in your personal belief system which you believe because you believe.

Will do.

[CBear3]

I've communicated with most of you for a couple years now, and I know that nobody is trying to be offensive and/or degrading. It's not anybody's intent to be a Tarnstrom and piss each other off (at least not those in the current discussion).

But knowing that doesn't mean some things won't evoke an emotional response. And I don't think that my faith is any less a part of me than redwill's steadfast trust in science. It's just that following a doctrine of prove it to me is a whole lot easier to defend than the unseen. You can't ask a theist to prove something unseeable, so it's really a dead end street.

BTW, my dad used to jump out from around corners at the little automatic door sensors, telling us kids he was trying to scare the little man operating the door inside. Want to talk about being embarrassed in public.

[tifosi77]

I hope not, that's not what I was getting at. Certainly hope it wasn't taken that way.

In other words, it makes sense to me that people of faith can be quite offended when questions are posed of them.

That seems quite patronizing, at least in light of the little dance we seem to have to be doing around the sensibilities of some in this thread.

I say that merely to underscore that there is very little emotional content at the core of atheism. It is dispassionate, which is - almost by definition - the opposite of religious belief. People give over their lives to a belief in a higher power, so I can see how that might lend itself to feeling put upon if people start asking questions about the number of animals on the ark.

[Clams Herbert]

"If you get deep into particle physics, you start to realize that there really is no such thing as solid matter. Everything in the universe appears to be built upon waves of vibrating energy, and if you look deep enough at anything, there's really nothing there, at all, and we don't actually "exist" as matter in space-time in the way you think we do.

This concept supports a smorgasbord of fantastical theories; the idea we live in a simulation, the idea that there's actually a "god" of some sort, the idea there's multiple universes (some say an infinite number of them) or any number of other interesting ideas."

For me, the question of "why do bad things happen" as an atheist is pretty simple. Life is brutal. People make it brutal for each other. There's no driving force or guiding hand at work. Everyone experiences tomorrow for the first time together. Break things down to an atomic level. Keep zooming. There's space between those atoms. Nothing is solid construction. We could even be freaking computer programs.



"

[tifosi77]

.....the idea there's multiple universes (some say an infinite number of them)...

I learned this from Bioshock Infinite.

[shafnutz05]

for instance, when an infant dies of SIDS, and cannot go to heaven because they aren't baptized yet

I went back and noticed this post...is there a religion out there that actually believes this? As "fire and brimstone" as the Old Testament was, there are several key verses indicating that children and other innocents (like the mentally ill, etc), would be welcomed into God's kingdom.

I can't speak for everyone's religion but I thought the concept of an "age of accountability" was pretty widely accepted.

[Willie Kool]

just thinking about child birth and how much of a miracle it is...

Meh. Is it also a miracle when a rat gives birth?

[count2infinity]

"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."
-Stuart Chase

Probably best sums up the bulk of the thread so far.

[PFiDC]

Where's my 10 foot pole?

Why do you believe?

Can you give an example of an acceptable response?

[PFiDC]

for instance, when an infant dies of SIDS, and cannot go to heaven because they aren't baptized yet

I know that in mormonism baptism is required for salvation. Thus the postmortem baptisms. I don't think it is. Every believer should be baptized but it isn't mandatory. If one believes that baptism is necessary for salvation than it is saying that the work that Christ did in his life, death, and resurrection are not enough, which is not true.

[Sarcastic]

for instance, when an infant dies of SIDS, and cannot go to heaven because they aren't baptized yet

I went back and noticed this post...is there a religion out there that actually believes this? As "fire and brimstone" as the Old Testament was, there are several key verses indicating that children and other innocents (like the mentally ill, etc), would be welcomed into God's kingdom.

I can't speak for everyone's religion but I thought the concept of an "age of accountability" was pretty widely accepted.

I was friends with a Mormon girl for a while. She and I constantly got into it when discussing this stuff. According to her, nobody who was not baptized would get into heaven. I asked, what about people who follow different religions. Nope. What about people who don't even know of Jesus or Christianity, such as native people around the world. Nope. People who were born before Christianity came about and never had a chance to get baptized. Nope. Her church had a task they'd do, which was to look up deceased people's names in papers and address books and get them baptized without their knowledge. Just so they could be accepted. It was horrible. She was so brainwashed. We discussed a lot of stuff and we'd get into arguments. No yelling or anything, just annoyed at disagreements. We eventually stopped talking.

[columbia]

Where's my 10 foot pole?

[Freddy Rumsen]

[PFiDC]

Where's my 10 foot pole?

I searched for a while for a .gif that would properly represent my failure to stay away. I can't believe I never thought of this. Well done.

[Freddy Rumsen]

[DigitalGypsy66]

Source of the post People who were born before Christianity came about and never had a chance to get baptized. Nope. Her church had a task they'd do, which was to look up deceased people's names in papers and address books and get them baptized without their knowledge. Just so they could be accepted. It was horrible. She was so brainwashed.

I don't tread often in these threads, but LDS folks have some interesting beliefs. As for the forced baptisms, Anne Frank and her family were "adopted" to be baptized and it made headlines a few years ago (as Romney was running for president).

Mormons have big families so that their children can adopt the souls of non-baptized folks so they can get into heaven.

Joseph Smith had a vision where God said his people could drink brewed beverages, which I always find to be an odd choice. Why not spicy foods? Fried foods? Some Mormons take this to mean caffeinated drinks, and others take it to mean beer, coffee, and tea. I have a Mormon friend and co-worker who doesn't drink tea or coffee but drinks Coke Zero almost by IV. His family left the church when he was in middle school and high school, and being raised in Georgia, was quite a fan of sweet iced tea. But once he rejoined the church, he hasn't had tea since. Bizarre.

[shafnutz05]

When my wife and I visited Utah, we checked out the LDS stuff in Salt Lake City. We visited the large (and I mean LARGE) ancestry library they have right near Temple Square. They were very helpful, I found a ton of cool stuff from my own family history and was able to print out my lineage, etc. They have smaller versions of these libraries all across the country, and I guarantee there's one relatively close to your location.

They also own Ancestry.com. When I found out later about the post-mortem baptizing they do, it made a lot more sense to me.

[PFiDC]

Postmortem baptism has never bothered me outside of it being wacky IMO. Some people get really mad about it. What strikes me as odd is that, if you don't believe in God or whatever, why do you care if someone says they baptized the spirit of your great grandmother? It means nothing.

[Kraftster]

So these postmortem baptisms send these perished souls to heaven? Where are they in the meantime? Imagine how awesome that must be to be hanging out wherever--a place not as cool as heaven, I'm sure--and then get teleported to that place in the sky out of the blue.