Thread of legal hubbub

[willeyeam]

Tint seems more egregious than no inspection imo

[dodint]

Not really. A lack of inspection could indicate any number of problems. Tint laws are to help LEO see into the vehicle during traffic stops, so it is very counterintuitive to initiate a stop just for that.

I think inspection programs are unnecessary, but if you're going to have one then the above is why you enforce it.

[willeyeam]

Not really. A lack of inspection could indicate any number of problems. Tint laws are to help LEO see into the vehicle during traffic stops, so it is very counterintuitive to initiate a stop just for that.

I think inspection programs are unnecessary, but if you're going to have one then the above is why you enforce it.

Ahh I always assumed the tint was illegal because of possible safety issues seeing out. If it's just for cops looking in then I get that

[skullman80]

Can you get pulled over in PA for an expired inspection? My brother did, and I thought for some reason they had to get you for something else first. He just got a warning and it was no big deal but it made me wonder

A long long time ago I drove almost a whole year on an expired inspection. I got pulled over for it and got a ticket.

I went and got my car inspected before appearing for the ticket and got it basically thrown out.

[DigitalGypsy66]

Well, the wheels of probate have started moving. My parents' house can now be legally put on the market. Same with their X5.

Feels strange, to be honest.

[Shyster]

Double spacing is spacing set at exactly twice the point size of the font. For 12-point text, that would be 24-point line spacing. Microsoft Word's "double spaced" is too wide and has been for years.

[mikey]

https://news.yahoo.com/county-shuts-dow ... s'%20trash.

Thought this was interesting...

Palm Beach County, Florida, is making commercial worm composting illegal, saying it owns the rights to residents’ trash.

When, if at any point, do you relinquish the rights to your garbage...?

[dodint]

I'd reckon when it leaves the curtilage of your property.

[mikey]

Learned a new word.

So...does that mean that police could search your garbage after it leaves the curtilage of your property without a warrant and use any evidence against you in court...?

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

She explained to Palm Beach Daily News, “Whether or not it’s on the curb or in your house, if it’s trash, it’s the property of the Solid Waste Authority.”

this is what the woman who doesn’t work for the waste company claims they say, so take it with a slight grain of salt, but also, what???? no way do they have rights to “all trash”

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

Learned a new word.

So...does that mean that police could search your garbage after it leaves the curtilage of your property without a warrant and use any evidence against you in court...?

I’m guessing they would still need a warrant since it’s the waste company’s property

[mikey]

She explained to Palm Beach Daily News, “Whether or not it’s on the curb or in your house, if it’s trash, it’s the property of the Solid Waste Authority.”

this is what the woman who doesn’t work for the waste company claims they say, so take it with a slight grain of salt, but also, what???? no way do they have rights to “all trash”

If that was the case, then do you really have to take the trash to the curb...?

[dodint]

Learned a new word.

So...does that mean that police could search your garbage after it leaves the curtilage of your property without a warrant and use any evidence against you in court...?

Yes, they can.

[MR25]

Is that for the same reason if, for example, you put a grill out for pick up, anyone can take it with no repercussions?

[dodint]

I think that has more to do with property abandonment doctrine.
Though you can use curtilage to illustrate where placement of the grill would be proper to signal that you are offering it up for free. Sticking it next to your garage gives you a stronger claim that you didn't abandon it than if you take it the the property edge to set it on the curb. But they're not really directly related conceptually.

[tifosi77]

When I was in college - lo these many years gone - the general rule was "if it is in a location that is accessible by John Q Public (e.g. not private property) the police don't need a warrant for a search. Which also means that any evidence - including DNA collected from discarded materials - could be admissible.

There's obviously fudgery and nuance to that, but I think the general sense is (was?) that if you've left the stuff out to be picked up by a third party, anyway, you have no expectation of privacy or, by extension, 4th Amendment protection. There are some mitigating factors; for example, I think police have to demonstrate that you are the person who placed the trash bin there, and that the bin was undisturbed before the search was conducted. Courts won't admit evidence of kiddie pr0n taken from your trash if the police can't show that it wasn't a random person walking down your street who ditched their stash in your black bin like it was a bag of doggie poop. Something along those lines.... they still have to prove that it's your trash.

Basically, if you are interested in discarding evidence of a crime you've committed, don't throw it away in your own refuse bin, or bundle it in a bag full of junk mail addressed specifically to you.

[tifosi77]

Q for dodint and/or Shyster re 'curtilage'

For the purposes of this discussion, is there a substantive difference between a trash bin left on the sidewalk vs one on the street directly in front of the sidewalk?

Example: Our yard crew usually fills up our green bin every 2-3 weeks depending on the time of year. And they do us the courtesy of placing the bin on the sidewalk next to our driveway. But for pickup/collection, the bin is supposed to be on the actual street level. So sometime after they leave, I move the 8"-10" or whatever to place it down on the actual street. Homeowners are generally required to maintain the cleanliness and form of the sidewalk within the shadow of their property line, even though the city 'owns' that space. Does that make any difference in the context we've been discussing?

[dodint]

No.

[tifosi77]

Does 'no' mean the sidewalk is curtilage or is not curtilage?

[dodint]

It is not curtilage.

Curtilage is fleeting. If you have a 5 acre farm, the curtilage is just the space immediately surrounding the occupied dwelling. It doesn't stretch to the boundaries of the property.
A sidewalk wouldn't be curtilage because there is no expectation of privacy in that space. Similar to the farm, you don't expect privacy in a corn field but you do at the farmhouse.

[Shyster]

Agree with dodint. That wouldn't be curtilage, which is more of the area right around the house.

The seminal case dealing with garbage was California v. Greenwood, 486 U.S. 35 (1988). Cops went through the garbage from a house in Laguna Beach and found evidence of drug use. They got a warrant based off that, searched the house, and cocaine and marijuana and other evidence of drug trafficking. Went up to SCOTUS, and the Court ruled that the defendant had no reasonable expectation of privacy in the trash because it was left outside the curtilage of the home, it had been left there expressly so that the trash collector—a stranger—could take it, and it was “common knowledge” that garbage at the side of the street is “readily accessible to animals, children, scavengers, snoops, and other members of the public.”

I do personally think that limiting protection to the curtilage is too narrow, however. The SCOTUS has since 1924 generally held that the 4A warrant requirements do not extend to "open fields" that are outside the curtilage. There is active litigation right now on that point. There are cases where game wardens or other government personnel have entered onto people's property—even bypassing locked gates and walking past "no trespassing" signs—and even placed cameras on the private property, all without any warrants. To me, if land outside the curtilage has been fenced off and there are "no trespassing" signs or other obvious indications that free access is being denied, then a warrant should be required to search that land even though it would be outside the traditional notion of the curtilage. If I put up a fence with a locked gate and post "no trespassing" signs, then IMO there should be a reasonable expectation of privacy in that area. I know the Institute for Justice is handing multiple of those lawsuits, and I'd really like to see the SCOTUS revisit the open-fields doctrine.

[dodint]

I agree there should be more property protections of this kind.

Similarly I disagree with the duty of care to trespassers doctrine. **** em, I say.

[MalkinIsMyHomeboy]

does a “no trespassing” sign really have legal significance?


I mean like…just because I don’t have a sign doesn’t mean I want people walking on my property. I had always kind of assumed No Tresspassing signs were more like “hey I might shoot you” warning but the placement of a sign is effectively just dressing where trespassing laws would remain constant regardless of signage

[Shyster]

I've had a case active for the last couple years against the PA Attorney General. It's a long story, but the trial court granted summary judgment for the AG's office as a form of sanctions (the sanctionable behavior dated to before my firm got involved with the case). I got those sanctions reversed on appeal before the Commonwealth Court, and late last year the Supreme Court granted the AG's petition for allowance of appeal. We just settled the case, and as part of that the Supreme Court appeal will be withdrawn as moot, so I won't get to make what would have been my fourth appearance before the PA Supremes. I'm a little disappointed at that, but oh well.

[dodint]

Booo.