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tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:22 pm

Hmm.... the Aviation Safety Reporting System database (run by NASA!) has multiple reports of uncommanded nose-down moments in Max 8s since last year.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... p2/a486265

NTP66
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Postby NTP66 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:28 am

Several Boeing 737 Max 8 pilots in U.S. complained about suspected safety flaw
Pilots repeatedly voiced safety concerns about the Boeing 737 Max 8 to federal authorities, with one captain calling the flight manual "inadequate and almost criminally insufficient" several months before Sunday's Ethiopian Air crash that killed 157 people, an investigation by The Dallas Morning News found.

The News found five complaints about the Boeing model in a federal database where pilots can voluntarily report about aviation incidents without fear of repercussions.

The complaints are about the safety mechanism cited in preliminary reports about an October Boeing 737 Max 8 crash in Indonesia that killed 189.

NTP66
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Postby NTP66 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:48 am

In other news, American Airlines has finally made a change to their system, as I just received a flight change notification for our flights in June. They never used to send these alerts this far out in the past, which is why I've always created a recurring reminder to check on Mondays.

Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:47 am

I have a flight tomorrow morning, how do I find out what model plane I'll be on?

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Postby NTP66 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:49 am

Use Google Flights to find your flight number and it'll show you the type of aircraft. Most of the MAX's in the US are based out of Miami.

Troy Loney
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Postby Troy Loney » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:55 am

Thx, it's not one of those death traps, so thank heavens for that.

grunthy
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Postby grunthy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:55 am

Or flight aware

tifosi77
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Postby tifosi77 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:56 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think there are only like 50-60 Max 8s in service with US carriers. And it's only American and Southwest.

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Postby Troy Loney » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:59 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think there are only like 50-60 Max 8s in service with US carriers. And it's only American and Southwest.
That doesn't explain why US is basically the only country that hasn't grounded those planes.

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Postby Tomas » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:26 am

EASA was apparently ordering 737 MAX to land immediately after 8PM yesterday, even if the planes were up in the air. Smartwings Dubai-Prague had to land in Ankara, and Cape Verde-Prague landed in Tunis. I am sure Turkey and Tunisia must have been ecstatic...

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Postby Shyster » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:36 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think there are only like 50-60 Max 8s in service with US carriers. And it's only American and Southwest.
That doesn't explain why US is basically the only country that hasn't grounded those planes.
Because there is no evidence that the two crashes are even related at all, let alone that there is any systemic issue with the MAX that competent pilots could not deal with.

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Postby eddy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:44 am

Boeing is making an extensive change to 737 MAX flight-control feature - it had been expected in Jan but was delayed, in part, b/c --> "U.S. officials have said the federal government’s recent shutdown also halted work on the fix for five weeks."+

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-to- ... 1552413489

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Postby Shyster » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:45 am

Hmm.... the Aviation Safety Reporting System database (run by NASA!) has multiple reports of uncommanded nose-down moments in Max 8s since last year.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... p2/a486265
I've seen news reports referring to this database as well. Only two of those complaints had anything to do with nose-down behavior, and I don't believe either report could have implicated the MCAS system because that system is only active when the autopilot is off, and I believe both of those reports said the autopilot was on. One of the reports was just a complaint that the manual for the MAX was insufficient, which was not a report of aberrant behavior for the aircraft. And the fact that reports have been made does not necessarily prove that an aircraft is unsafe. I ran a search on the same database for incident reports on the Airbus A320 since January 2018, for example, and it came back with more than 450 incident reports, including many reports of in-flight behavior. Of course, there are a lot more A320s flying in the US than MAX 8s, so that skews the numbers, but no one thinks the A320 is unsafe.

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Postby eddy » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:51 am

Canada banning Boeing Max from Canadian airspace, transport minister says, as a precautionary measure based on new information received this morning

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Postby Shyster » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:54 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but i think there are only like 50-60 Max 8s in service with US carriers. And it's only American and Southwest.
That doesn't explain why US is basically the only country that hasn't grounded those planes.
Also, as I posted yesterday, the MAX aircraft operated by American and Southwest were all ordered with additional optional AoA warnings and/or instrument systems that Lion Air did not order and were not present on the aircraft that crashed last year. If there is a disagreement between the two AoA sensors, the pilots of those aircraft will get an obvious and immediate warning, which will signal them to shut off the auto-trim system. The only known evidence of any problem with the MAX is the potential of a trim runaway when the MCAS system is relying upon a malfunctioning AoA sensor, and US MAX pilots will get an immediate alert of that situation.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indo ... SKCN1NZ0QL

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Postby tifosi77 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:33 pm

One of the reports was just a complaint that the manual for the MAX was insufficient, which was not a report of aberrant behavior for the aircraft.
To me, this is the most important takeaway. "The manual was insufficient" is kind of a big deal. It creates the possibility of write-off mishaps from scenarios that should be routine fly aways. If the Ethiopian crash ends up being related to this, it is not less of a fault with the aircraft (or, more accurately, the manufacturer).
And the fact that reports have been made does not necessarily prove that an aircraft is unsafe. I ran a search on the same database for incident reports on the Airbus A320 since January 2018, for example, and it came back with more than 450 incident reports, including many reports of in-flight behavior. Of course, there are a lot more A320s flying in the US than MAX 8s, so that skews the numbers, but no one thinks the A320 is unsafe.
There are also how many thousands of A320s around the world, with the type in service since the late 80s.

When you ran your search, did you use filters taken from past A320 incidents where a specific fault with the jet was a potential cause of the mishap? (Are there any such incidents? I honestly don't know.) How many of them are of the "the button to talk to the cabin is in a weird place" variety? Because the incidents in that DocumentCloud thing are keyed on that same uncommanded pitch behavior that appears common to the two MAX8 mishaps.

(I mean, in a way I guess you could say that all crashes are a result of some sort of uncommanded pitch behavior....)

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Postby NTP66 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:36 pm

Shyster just likes shitting on Airbus. This isn't new.

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Postby tifosi77 » Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:46 pm

I did not factor that into my reply. Fair play.

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:34 pm

Moot
BREAKING: Trump just announced the U.S. WILL ground all Boeing 737 Max 8 planes in the U.S.
https://twitter.com/AliVelshi/status/11 ... 0356217858

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Postby Shyster » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:20 pm

Shyster just likes shitting on Airbus. This isn't new.

When have I been shitting on Airbus? Both companies make quality aircraft, and both companies have niches where their aircraft are superior to the other's. I've certainly called out Boeing for stupid stuff in the past, such as Boeing's stupid "anti dumping" lawsuit against Bombardier that drove Bombardier to functionally sell the C-Series to Airbus.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:57 am

We are flying direct down to Mobile, AL to visit my mom and sister this weekend. Flying an MD-88 down to Charlotte, and then a Bombardier Regional Jet down to Mobile.

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Postby NTP66 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:02 am

Are you a glutton for punishment or something? Nothing about that post is good.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:18 am

Are you a glutton for punishment or something? Nothing about that post is good.
Unfortunately, not much choice in the matter.

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Postby Tomas » Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:53 pm

"It could have been our last flight, say the Czech travelers from Boeing 737 MAX 8"

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... omaci_jumi

2 out of how many?? :lol:

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Postby Shyster » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:29 pm

Mad dogs aren't too bad in terms of comfort, and they are pretty quiet if you're not sitting in the back. Just about all of them are going to be pretty worn out by this time, though. Many years ago, I had a flight in a DC-9 where I was literally in the last row with the engine right next to me. Now that really sucked. More recently, I was on a Delta MD-88 to Atlanta, and it wasn't bad at all.

The CRJs supposedly are better if it's one of the newer NextGen versions. I've never been on one, but from what I've read, a lot of people don't like the CRJs because the windows were small and oddly low. The post-2008 NextGen versions redid the windows and have a new interior with nicer seats and bigger luggage bins.

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