5AF NASCAR thread (all levels including ARCA, ASA, etc)

[Freddy Rumsen]

https://twitter.com/jeff_gluck/status/8 ... 4707521537

[relantel]

Tim Richmond was a bigger departure IMHO. He was shaping up to be THE rival to Earnhardt. The whole landscape of NASCAR would have been different.

Edwards got 13 full time seasons in, which is more than Richmond ever managed (just 6).

[Freddy Rumsen]

The Tim Richmond 30-for-30 is depressing. What a waste.

[shafnutz05]

Holy hell.....Carl Edwards? That is an absolute stunner

[Freddy Rumsen]

http://www.sbnation.com/2017/1/11/14054 ... ce-decline

NASCAR is a sport at a crossroads, still trying to find a solution to falling ratings and declining attendance.

[dodint]

Welllllll, have a look at the first 80% of the schedule having virtually no bearing on the title and go from there.

[shafnutz05]

Welllllll, have a look at the first 80% of the schedule having virtually no bearing on the title and go from there.

Bingo. The new system has completely destroyed whatever waning interest I had in the sport.

[relantel]

Welllllll, have a look at the first 80% of the schedule having virtually no bearing on the title and go from there.

Bingo. The new system has completely destroyed whatever waning interest I had in the sport.

At least the old chase it was still at least a 10 race stretch.

I think I read somewhere that under a non-chase setting, it would be Jeff Gordon as a 7 time champ and not Jimmie. 2015 having a champ who missed 1/3 of the season showed just how much of a joke the new Chase is.

[CBear3]

Can't change the rules retroactively or teams/drivers would have had different strategies Rainbow boy.

Tim Richmond and Davey Allison were supposed to temper the end of Earnhardt's career and the beginning of Gordon's. It's the natural ebb and flow, and without them Gordon was pretty well unrivalled and Earnhardt tried to hang on too long. Same goes for Senna's death and Schumacher's seemingly instant domination.

As for NASCAR's product, it's boring. Even if you got rid of the Chase it'd still be boring. 80% of the races are snoozers. You need shorter races, on smaller tracks to promote tight racing. You need a tire that performs better at higher slip angles (old bias ply days) to go along with their recent work in taking away downforce.

Cup races used to be marathons where you had to take car of your equipment, but it's a rarity to have more then 3 or 4 cars out of the race with a true mechanical failure from fatigue. There's no benefit now to having the races as long as they are.

To really shake things up, I'd make Xfinity and Cup cars identical. Saturday's race is for the last ten spots on Sunday's grid. Use something like GP2's sprint and enduro formats.

[Freddy Rumsen]

Can't change the rules retroactively or teams/drivers would have had different strategies Rainbow boy.

Tim Richmond and Davey Allison were supposed to temper the end of Earnhardt's career and the beginning of Gordon's. It's the natural ebb and flow, and without them Gordon was pretty well unrivalled and Earnhardt tried to hang on too long. Same goes for Senna's death and Schumacher's seemingly instant domination.

As for NASCAR's product, it's boring. Even if you got rid of the Chase it'd still be boring. 80% of the races are snoozers. You need shorter races, on smaller tracks to promote tight racing. You need a tire that performs better at higher slip angles (old bias ply days) to go along with their recent work in taking away downforce.

Cup races used to be marathons where you had to take car of your equipment, but it's a rarity to have more then 3 or 4 cars out of the race with a true mechanical failure from fatigue. There's no benefit now to having the races as long as they are.

To really shake things up, I'd make Xfinity and Cup cars identical. Saturday's race is for the last ten spots on Sunday's grid. Use something like GP2's sprint and enduro formats.

Some good ideas here.

NASCAR also suffers from a personality deficit.

All the good drivers are boring (Jr., JJ, Jeff Gordon, Matt Kenseth, Greg Biffle, etc...) or just jagoff's (see here the Busch Bro's and Tony).

[relantel]

Hrmpf. NASCAR apparently changing the points system again....

http://www.jayski.com/cupnews.htm#20170121c

NASCAR to announce 2017 changes on Monday UPDATES: Monday at 6:00pm/et in the Charlotte Convention Center, NASCAR officials will announce format changes for the 2017 Monster Energy NASCAR Cup Series. Those changes could include such things as a new points system, awarding points for leading race segments, new qualifying procedures and perhaps running the Chase race at Charlotte Motor Speedway on the track's infield circuit. All of the above have been rumored in recent weeks, although none have been confirmed. During recent weeks, NASCAR officials have met with a variety of key stakeholders in the sport - track operators, team owners, drivers, sponsors and others - to discuss various options in an attempt to generate new excitement and interest into the sport in this, Monster Energy's first year as the new series entitlement sponsor.(Fox Sports) The announcement will be shown live on FoxSports 1 and NBCSN, streamed on NASCAR.com Press Pass and available on SiriusXM.(1-21-2017)
UPDATE: NASCAR is expected to announce Monday that it will change how it awards points during a race. NASCAR is expected to divide races into segments, and drivers would get points depending on their running order at the end of each segment, according to industry sources. The news conference Monday will detail the new points distribution system with the goal that drivers will have to compete for spots early in the event rather than having the option to bide their time until the end of the race before making a move. NASCAR currently awards points on a 40-to-1 scale from the highest to the lowest finisher among its 40 drivers. A driver who wins gets three bonus points, while a driver who leads a lap gets one bonus point and the driver who leads the most laps gets an additional bonus point. The way a driver qualifies to get into NASCAR's version of its playoffs - the regular-season champion and then 15 drivers based on wins with points as the tiebreaker - is not expected to change. NASCAR also has explored ways to make regular-season performance more meaningful in the playoffs, with the current format allowing drivers to carry over their bonus points from wins only into the first round.(ESPN.com)(1-21-2017)
UPDATE 2: The crux of the changes will focus on dividing each race of the entire season into segments - typically three, multiple sources confirmed. In general, the system will work as follows:
• Teams will know before the season begins how each race will be divided, which will be based on race and track length.
• At the end of each segment during the races, bonus points will be awarded for those drivers running in the Top 10.
• During the segment breaks, there will be coordination between NASCAR and the TV networks to ensure as little on-track action (including pit stops) will be missed as possible.
• At the end of the race, the normal points will be awarded to the finishing order of the race as they have been.
• A driver's total for the event will include the normal race finish points plus any top-10 running bonus points collected in the segments.
• The 10-race Chase for the championship will be conducted in most part as it has, but there is expected to be an opportunity for drivers to earn bonus points during the Chase.
(Motorsport)(1-22-2017)

[relantel]

Also saw the had Allmendinger testing a road course at Charlotte, possibly for use as soon as the All-Star race in may but perhaps being run as the Charlotte Chase date.

http://www.motorsport.com/nascar-cup/ne ... ay-866949/

[iamjs]

Source of the post NASCAR is expected to divide races into segments, and drivers would get points depending on their running order at the end of each segment, according to industry sources. The news conference Monday will detail the new points distribution system with the goal that drivers will have to compete for spots early in the event rather than having the option to bide their time until the end of the race before making a move.

dumb.

The goal is to win the race, not to lead every lap. If it means hanging back until 15-20 to go, then so be it.

But if this is the format that they're gonna run with, then I'm curious how this new format would have worked with previous seasons.

[shafnutz05]

@relantel

Like I said before, my NASCAR fandom completely died with the latest points change. I didn't mind the original Chase format because it still placed a large emphasis on the first 26 races (better seeding in the final 10 races), and still rewarded consistency. I cannot be a fan of any racing league that has a one-race championship between four drivers and 39 others just running laps. A driver could win the first 35 races, and have Bubba Brickman blow a tire right in front of him in the final race. POOF, championship hopes gone.

It makes the first 26 races utterly meaningless, especially with the field up to 16 now. Farewell, NASCAR. Rot in hell France.

[Freddy Rumsen]

"How can I make things worse" -- Brian France

[relantel]

@shafnutz05

In addition to being utterly more confusing... so you have race points still, 5 bonus to the winner to carry over plus the former 40-1 scaling which is now 35-1 with 36-40 getting a single point. But now you also have points for being in the top 10, 10-1, at each segment break, as well as 1 bonus point for each segment winner that carries over to the Chase. No longer any bonuses for leading a lap or leading the most laps. So it could be possible for a winner to be outside the top 10 at the two segment breaks and thus just have 40 points for winning. Or, the winner wins both segments and ends up with 40 + 11 + 11 or 62 points out of one race. That's creating huge gaps. Gone are the days of valuing consistency!

Bonus points carry over through all 3 rounds of the playoffs now.

Brian France said it's to make the entire race meaningful. But the Chase resets and one-race for the title could leave the dominant driver of the season out of the picture if he doesn't win in round 3.

AND WORSE YET:
They've decided to do this for ALL THREE SERIES this year. Tinker, tinker, tinker, and wonder why nobody cares.

@iamjs
I know when they went to the 2014-2016 format, someone computed who would have won with that system, but beyond them determining Dale Jr would have won in 2013 I don't recall any others. And I know someone had done the math with no chase vs chase (J Gordon would be 7 time champ and Harvick multiple with no chase) and chase vs no chase (that Earnhardt Sr wouldn't be 7 time champ with a chase format). Someone's bound to try and figure this out. The amorphous piece is the segment breaks and when they would be, and trying to figure out what the running order was on a given lap of a race. That data may be available to the media but I don't think it's out there to the public.


Hmmmm...

• The 150-mile qualifying races at Daytona will be worth points to the top-10 drivers on a 10-to-1 scale (just like a race segment), but the winners do not get bonus points for the playoffs.

Points for the non-points race but they don't count as points wins. Messed up logic there.

and

• NASCAR won't allow teams to replace body panels during a race, and teams will have additional limitations on crash repair that likely will mean most drivers who have to go to the garage won't return for the remainder of the race.

This last one is a huge shift. There have been races where drivers were able to get their cars repaired, get back on the lead lap, and win. Taking that element out is a major disservice IMHO.

[Freddy Rumsen]

Total buffoonery.

[Freddy Rumsen]

Though there is this

https://twitter.com/MattWeaverAW/status ... 9436522496

[relantel]

Total buffoonery.

That's a pretty good nutshell.

In 2011, they rammed the 43-1 scale down our throat claiming the prior scheme was too confusing. And now just 6 years later, they go way past the old 175-170-165-160-155-150-146-142-138-134-130-127-124-121-118-etc-by-3s system to this hot mess.

Lesson they don't want to learn: each level of tinkering drives folks away. If they had only left it alone in 2004....

[iamjs]

I know when they went to the 2014-2016 format, someone computed who would have won with that system, but beyond them determining Dale Jr would have won in 2013 I don't recall any others. And I know someone had done the math with no chase vs chase (J Gordon would be 7 time champ and Harvick multiple with no chase) and chase vs no chase (that Earnhardt Sr wouldn't be 7 time champ with a chase format). Someone's bound to try and figure this out. The amorphous piece is the segment breaks and when they would be, and trying to figure out what the running order was on a given lap of a race. That data may be available to the media but I don't think it's out there to the public.

I think I might have posted this before, but there's a page on wiki that shows who would have won in a non-Chase format: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASCAR_Ch ... _champions

2004: Jeff Gordon would have won his 5th career title and the 6th title for car owner Rick Hendrick.[15]
2005: Tony Stewart, first driver in NASCAR history to win both old points format and Chase system, would win either way.[16]
2006: Jimmie Johnson would win the title either way in 2006.[17]
2007: Jeff Gordon would have won his 6th career title – the 8th title for Hendrick and three of the last four. Wins by over 350 points.[18]
2008: Carl Edwards would have dethroned Johnson by 16 points for first title.[19]
2009: Jimmie Johnson would get second title beating Gordon by 66 points. 4 of the last 6 for Hendrick.[20] Either way he would win.
2010: Kevin Harvick dominated the entire season beating Johnson by over 200 points.[21]
2011: With the new 2011 season's points format, Carl Edwards takes 2nd title in four seasons after clinching title at Phoenix after finishing 2nd to Kasey Kahne.[22]
2012: Brad Keselowski beats Greg Biffle by 19 points, while Jimmie Johnson still finishes third, 28 points behind. Either way he would win.[23]
2013: Jimmie Johnson wins his third championship by 41 points over Kevin Harvick and 56 points over Matt Kenseth.[24] Either way he would win.
2014: Jeff Gordon wins his seventh title by 37 points over Joey Logano, tying himself with Dale Earnhardt and Richard Petty for the most Cup championships of all-time.
2015: Kevin Harvick wins his second championship, beating Joey Logano by 22 points. Jeff Gordon finishes eighth to conclude a 23-year career and Kyle Busch finishes 20th despite missing 11 races.
2016: Kevin Harvick becomes the first driver to repeat as Cup champion since Jeff Gordon in 1998, collecting his third series title. He also is just the seventh driver in Cup history to win at least three championships. Joey Logano finished second for the third consecutive season, missing out on the title by 27 points. Kyle Busch was third, while three-time series champion Jimmie Johnson was eighth.

Brian France said it's to make the entire race meaningful.

But does it? If I'm understanding this new format correctly, now you're racing for a group of selected increments and for the checkered as opposed to only the checkered. If you're making the whole race meaningful, then why not point every lap? Hmmm, Brian, are you listening? I might have your next points tweak.

NASCAR won't allow teams to replace body panels during a race, and teams will have additional limitations on crash repair that likely will mean most drivers who have to go to the garage won't return for the remainder of the race.
This last one is a huge shift. There have been races where drivers were able to get their cars repaired, get back on the lead lap, and win. Taking that element out is a major disservice IMHO.

Yeah, I'm not really liking that last part at all.

[shafnutz05]

Races will now consist of three stages, with championship implications in each stage.

· The top-10 finishers of the first two stages will be awarded additional championship points.

· The winner of the first two stages of each race will receive one playoff point, and the race winner will receive five playoff points. Each playoff point will be added to his or her reset total following race No. 26, if that competitor makes the playoffs.

· All playoff points will carry through to the end of the third round of the playoffs (Round of 8), with the Championship 4 racing straight-up at Homestead-Miami Speedway for the title.

· Championship points following the first two stages will be awarded on a descending scale, with the stage winner receiving 10 points, second receiving nine points, and so on.

· The race winner following the final stage will now receive 40 points, second place will receive 35, third place 34, fourth place 33, and so on.

I like the idea that the regular season points have a much bigger impact in the final 10 races, but even with all of those improvements, it's meaningless to me as long as they still have the championship decided by one race.

[Freddy Rumsen]

Under the old format Joey Logano becomes Mark Martin.

[dodint]

I haven't read this anywgere but second hand, but I heard they're doing a 10 minute break after each segment. So the event would be a series of sprints, like PWC or BTCC, but stupider.

[shafnutz05]

I haven't read this anywgere but second hand, but I heard they're doing a 10 minute break after each segment. So the event would be a series of sprints, like PWC or BTCC, but stupider.

I actually appreciated the long mid-race green flag runs. It was a perfect opportunity to catch a 30 minute cat nap or so. I can't even imagine the commentators trying to explain the new points system during every race. Over, and over, and over, and over again.

[relantel]

The FOX promos during the superb owl for Daytona left a bit to be desired.

Though Jr with Homer Simpson was a least worth a laugh, with Maggie getting the checkered....