Game of Thrones Discussion

[shmenguin]

Was it considered a deus ex machina when The Vale showed up in the nick of time to save Jon's ass at the Battle of the Bastards? I'm getting confused about when we dodint about the show or just enjoy the show.

"getting" confused?

the Vale intervention was considered that, actually. even though it's not technically "deus ex machina". it's more like, "let's impotently try to convince the viewer the main protagonist is about to die, and then have him saved at LITERALLY the last second". because that sort of timing is normal.

So basically the same thing as last night, except an army instead of dragons?

yeeeesss?

i don't really know what you're arguing. you want people to be retroactively fed up with scenes that existed before they evacuated the good will and benefit of the doubt from the viewer with this ham fisted numbskullery?

you can call people whiny brats or whatever. but this is a weird avenue.

[shmenguin]

With the Night King's arm you figure he would have thrown a few javelins at the group while they were huddling on the island. He must have really wanted a dragon.

i'm not sure what would have stopped him (besides plot armor) from killing all the island dwellers. the dragons were gonna come either way. i suppose he was worried about bran watching what unfolded and canceling the dragon order?

Also Rhaegal (?) is a total coward. I was really hoping he'd come back for Jon but he peaced the **** out of there as soon as his bro went down. He wasn't even shown at Eastwatch so he probably just fled right back to Dragonstone.

budget. dragons is expensive. i was waiting for jon to get swooped up as well. thought that was a perfect opportunity. but it's hard to animate dragons and harder when someone is riding them. so benjen ex machina was the more practical choice.

[AuthorTony]

I thought the Benjen rescue was a bigger "cheat" than Dany riding to the rescue. Yes, all of it was more than a little convoluted, but having two last minute heroic saves in the same episode made me chuckle.

I'm surprised people think Arya regressed during her scene with Sansa. I don't trust Sansa at all.

[Dickie Dunn]

Was it considered a deus ex machina when The Vale showed up in the nick of time to save Jon's ass at the Battle of the Bastards? I'm getting confused about when we dodint about the show or just enjoy the show.

"getting" confused?

the Vale intervention was considered that, actually. even though it's not technically "deus ex machina". it's more like, "let's impotently try to convince the viewer the main protagonist is about to die, and then have him saved at LITERALLY the last second". because that sort of timing is normal.

So basically the same thing as last night, except an army instead of dragons?

yeeeesss?

i don't really know what you're arguing. you want people to be retroactively fed up with scenes that existed before they evacuated the good will and benefit of the doubt from the viewer with this ham fisted numbskullery?

you can call people whiny brats or whatever. but this is a weird avenue.

I just don't get the transition from "ehh that kind of bothered me" to "OMG I'M SO OVER THIS SHOW" for what is essentially the same damn thing. What makes it happening now so much worse than when it happened previously?

[slappybrown]

Because its happening multiple times within the space of 15 minutes in the service of the single dumbest plot device I have seen on the show thus far (capture the wight). I dont think people are harping on the "realism", its just that the quality of the story-telling isn't very good right now IMO. That's it.

[shmenguin]

you can still enjoy the show and complain about it. I love it, I think it's one of the best things on TV (Twin Peaks is currently top on the best of everything list). I look forward to watching every week, but that doesn't mean there can't be some ridiculous things going on for us to dodint about.

it's a predictable response that we're not allowed to complain about plot holes in fantastical works of fiction. but that's a lazy opinion. the viewer is entitled to the story they're watching making sense or following some consistent world-building. so...in this world: dragons make sense, zombies make sense, zombie mountain makes sense, the children of the forest make sense. this is all fantasy stuff but it's ok in this world because they've established rules and cogent origin stories, and are following them. where this breaks down is when a character does something that is totally inconsistent with not only common sense, but also everything their character knows/is. it doesn't matter what genre it is. you can't say, "because plot device" any time you want to go from point A to point B. it's your job as a writer to make that path work. they A) didn't seem to give a crap about the actual story - they just wanted an ending and B) because of the money spent on last night's VFX orgy, they had to truncate the season. which is freaking lousy. we know they can do big CGI battles better than anyone. but the readers and viewers deserve a better final run. it's colossally disappointing. i'm not sure i even care anymore about what happens because the voice of the story is an idiot.

[Staggy]

I get a lot of the complaints about the season as there have been more holes than usual, but GRRM really left D&D between a rock and a hard place. They signed up to adapt his novels to television and did a masterful job of it. Now they're left doing original screenwriting for a story they didn't create, one where the author can't even figure out how to bring everything to a conclusion. Oh and on top of that, they have one year to do the writing, filming, compilation, etc.

[Dickie Dunn]

Also Rhaegal (?) is a total coward. I was really hoping he'd come back for Jon but he peaced the **** out of there as soon as his bro went down. He wasn't even shown at Eastwatch so he probably just fled right back to Dragonstone.

budget. dragons is expensive. i was waiting for jon to get swooped up as well. thought that was a perfect opportunity. but it's hard to animate dragons and harder when someone is riding them. so benjen ex machina was the more practical choice.

Also Rhaegal (?) is a total coward. I was really hoping he'd come back for Jon but he peaced the **** out of there as soon as his bro went down. He wasn't even shown at Eastwatch so he probably just fled right back to Dragonstone.

Dany only has control over Drogon. The other two would follow the lead of her and their larger sibling, but without a rider they're just willful participants who still have a mind of their own.

[the wicked child]

I get a lot of the complaints about the season as there have been more holes than usual, but GRRM really left D&D between a rock and a hard place. They signed up to adapt his novels to television and did a masterful job of it. Now they're left doing original screenwriting for a story they didn't create, one where the author can't even figure out how to bring everything to a conclusion. Oh and on top of that, they have one year to do the writing, filming, compilation, etc.

This is actually a very good point... they get what 2 years (3 if you count season 6) to solve what Martin himself hasn't been able to solve in how many years now?

Doesn't mean everyone has to like it, but the turn of events is hardly surprising.

In particular though, I don't see how anything that happened last night would really push anyone one way or the other... if you already didn't like the time jumps and plot convenience... this wasn't likely to change your feelings. If you didn't care about it and just want to sit back and enjoy the action... this wasn't likely to change it.

It's unfortunate that the fan base seems to have split into polar opposites on this, but whatever, Ima enjoy the ride. Martin sure as hell isn't gonna finish anytime soon.

[eddy]

Didn't GRRM tell them how the story is going to end a while ago? (Not saying they don't have a tough job without books as an outline)

[Troy Loney]

I get a lot of the complaints about the season as there have been more holes than usual, but GRRM really left D&D between a rock and a hard place. They signed up to adapt his novels to television and did a masterful job of it. Now they're left doing original screenwriting for a story they didn't create, one where the author can't even figure out how to bring everything to a conclusion. Oh and on top of that, they have one year to do the writing, filming, compilation, etc.

They've had plenty of time to write it. I feel like they just wanted to avoid predictability with this whole capture a wight plot line. They should have had Jon and Dany unite, learn their past, fight the lannisters then the wights. Or something a bit more linear, instead we had the terrible capture a wight episode with the the two dramatic rescues. There's so much suspended belief necessary just to accept what was going on.

[the wicked child]

Didn't GRRM tell them how the story is going to end a while ago? (Not saying they don't have a tough job without books as an outline)

He told them how it ends... but how to get there is another matter altogether. If he really knew that, we wouldn't be this many years into waiting on the next book.

[shmenguin]

I get a lot of the complaints about the season as there have been more holes than usual, but GRRM really left D&D between a rock and a hard place. They signed up to adapt his novels to television and did a masterful job of it. Now they're left doing original screenwriting for a story they didn't create, one where the author can't even figure out how to bring everything to a conclusion. Oh and on top of that, they have one year to do the writing, filming, compilation, etc.

F that to some extent, though. I imagine the ice dragon acquisition was known going in. so the job became, "get Jon into the North and have Dany save him...and lose a dragon in the process". that's it. there are infinite ways to get them there. and they chose...that. i guarantee that all of us could have come up with a better plan in one afternoon. now do they have logistics we aren't aware of that mutated a decent idea into what we just witnessed? maybe. but it seems unlikely that their hands were forced with ALL those awful gaffes.

[Staggy]

Yeah the capture a wight plan is indefensibly stupid. That was their biggest decision of the season and it was a bad one. I assume something significant is going to happen at the meeting next week that was their ultimate endgame, but again, find a better way to do it.

My comment was more in general though, they have an unenviable job and is likely why they insisted on only having these two shortened seasons.

[Dickie Dunn]

I get a lot of the complaints about the season as there have been more holes than usual, but GRRM really left D&D between a rock and a hard place. They signed up to adapt his novels to television and did a masterful job of it. Now they're left doing original screenwriting for a story they didn't create, one where the author can't even figure out how to bring everything to a conclusion. Oh and on top of that, they have one year to do the writing, filming, compilation, etc.

This is actually a very good point... they get what 2 years (3 if you count season 6) to solve what Martin himself hasn't been able to solve in how many years now?

Doesn't mean everyone has to like it, but the turn of events is hardly surprising.

In particular though, I don't see how anything that happened last night would really push anyone one way or the other... if you already didn't like the time jumps and plot convenience... this wasn't likely to change your feelings. If you didn't care about it and just want to sit back and enjoy the action... this wasn't likely to change it.

It's unfortunate that the fan base seems to have split into polar opposites on this, but whatever, Ima enjoy the ride. Martin sure as hell isn't gonna finish anytime soon ever.

As far as GRRM goes, he really screwed himself by adding new characters, new plotlines, and new POV characters three books into the series. It just becomes too unwieldy to tie things up. That's how you get things like The Wheel of Time going from a planned 6 books to 15 books. At least Jordan wrote the damn books though. He did 12 books (9,356 pages) in 15 years. Martin is at 5 books (4,228 pages) in 21 years.

[shmenguin]

In particular though, I don't see how anything that happened last night would really push anyone one way or the other... if you already didn't like the time jumps and plot convenience... this wasn't likely to change your feelings. If you didn't care about it and just want to sit back and enjoy the action... this wasn't likely to change it.

i don't tend to argue with the people who are ok with it turning into a "the fast & the furious" viewing experience. but certain folks like to say, "here's why you're dumb for thinking this way" and then proceed to defend the decision making. that's silly. enjoy it if you will, but the writing has clearly gone off the rails. let's acknowledge it and cut the crap (not you....others).

[Troy Loney]

Yeah the capture a wight plan is indefensibly stupid. That was their biggest decision of the season and it was a bad one. I assume something significant is going to happen at the meeting next week that was their ultimate endgame, but again, find a better way to do it.

My comment was more in general though, they have an unenviable job and is likely why they insisted on only having these two shortened seasons.

I have a feeling that there's going to be a death that is intended to "shock". I'm thinking Tyrion would be the most shocking, but it could also just be Jorah or the Hound.

[eddy]

Didn't GRRM tell them how the story is going to end a while ago? (Not saying they don't have a tough job without books as an outline)

He told them how it ends... but how to get there is another matter altogether. If he really knew that, we wouldn't be this many years into waiting on the next book.

I don't doubt he has an outline on how everything works out, I just don't think he wants to sit down and write all that out.

[eddy]

Yeah the capture a wight plan is indefensibly stupid. That was their biggest decision of the season and it was a bad one. I assume something significant is going to happen at the meeting next week that was their ultimate endgame, but again, find a better way to do it.

My comment was more in general though, they have an unenviable job and is likely why they insisted on only having these two shortened seasons.

I have a feeling that there's going to be a death that is intended to "shock". I'm thinking Tyrion would be the most shocking, but it could also just be Jorah or the Hound.

I agree and I think it's going to be tough to have a main character at this point have a "worthy" death. There just seems like there are too many characters left standing and not enough proper ways to finish them off. I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't want to see main characters go just for shock value with bad story behind it.

[Pavel Bure]

Also people in this world are insane swimmers and immune for the most part to cold.

Why didn't they just have Beric light up his portable camp stove to keep warm?

**** so many plot holes and false finishes.

[Troy Loney]

Yeah the capture a wight plan is indefensibly stupid. That was their biggest decision of the season and it was a bad one. I assume something significant is going to happen at the meeting next week that was their ultimate endgame, but again, find a better way to do it.

My comment was more in general though, they have an unenviable job and is likely why they insisted on only having these two shortened seasons.

I have a feeling that there's going to be a death that is intended to "shock". I'm thinking Tyrion would be the most shocking, but it could also just be Jorah or the Hound.

I agree and I think it's going to be tough to have a main character at this point have a "worthy" death. There just seems like there are too many characters left standing and not enough proper ways to finish them off. I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't want to see main characters go just for shock value with bad story behind it.

I think it's just getting a bit formulaic. So that had this whole build up earlier in the season that the Lannister weapon was going to kill a dragon, then it doesnt. Then two episodes later they start to show that the NK was going to throw a spear at the dragon, and boom this time, dead dragon. That battle had shots where everyone in that group was going to die, Tormund was the closest, so next time, him, or Jorah, or some main character on that tier is going to die. I rarely watch super hero movies, but I recently watched a new X-Men movie on HBO, there is a distinct pacing and experience to those movies, that maybe one doesn't realize when they watch a lot of those movies. This GOT episode was exactly that.

[shmenguin]

Yeah the capture a wight plan is indefensibly stupid. That was their biggest decision of the season and it was a bad one. I assume something significant is going to happen at the meeting next week that was their ultimate endgame, but again, find a better way to do it.

My comment was more in general though, they have an unenviable job and is likely why they insisted on only having these two shortened seasons.

I have a feeling that there's going to be a death that is intended to "shock". I'm thinking Tyrion would be the most shocking, but it could also just be Jorah or the Hound.

I agree and I think it's going to be tough to have a main character at this point have a "worthy" death. There just seems like there are too many characters left standing and not enough proper ways to finish them off. I hope I'm wrong, but I really don't want to see main characters go just for shock value with bad story behind it.

i've been so consumed with this storyline that i haven't really thought about what will happen next week. clegane bowl, yes please. and cersei will execute some sort of double cross, of course. but beyond that...dinklage still has cache to bring in viewers so he's not going anywhere. i guess if anyone dies it would be the mountain killing the hound or jorah maybe sacrificing himself for Dany and then her and Jon ride off together, each on their own dragon?

I think the book may end the lannister story there, but the show can't. so we're still gonna have to wait for jamie to strangle his sister. maybe she tells him there is no baby, or the baby is euron's next season. though if their is no baby, she'll have to reveal it before everyone's like, "where's your belly, yo?"

[Troy Loney]

i've been so consumed with this storyline that i haven't really thought about what will happen next week. clegane bowl, yes please. and cersei will execute some sort of double cross, of course. but beyond that...dinklage still has cache to bring in viewers so he's not going anywhere. i guess if anyone dies it would be the mountain killing the hound or jorah maybe sacrificing himself for Dany and then her and Jon ride off together, each on their own dragon?

I think the book may end the lannister story there, but the show can't. so we're still gonna have to wait for jamie to strangle his sister. maybe she tells him there is no baby, or the baby is euron's next season. though if their is no baby, she'll have to reveal it before everyone's like, "where's your belly, yo?"

I'm tempted to just go read the plot outline on reddit. It's arguable that learning what's going to happen in wiki page format is just as interesting as watching it right now.

[obhave]

Didn't GRRM tell them how the story is going to end a while ago? (Not saying they don't have a tough job without books as an outline)

He told them how it ends... but how to get there is another matter altogether. If he really knew that, we wouldn't be this many years into waiting on the next book.

I don't doubt he has an outline on how everything works out, I just don't think he wants to sit down and write all that out.

He also has mentioned annoyance that the show is ruining storylines, so he has hinted he may change the events in the book to keep things interesting. Which pisses me off to no end. If you have a plan stick to it. The plot is convoluted enough without changing things mid-story.

[large garlic]

I wonder if Euron has some bigger part to play in the finale. I remember that during all the press tours prior to the season, that actor was telling people that they'll come to see Euron is really a monster in the Joffrey/Ramsey category. He certainly hasn't reached that status with what he's done so far.