Official fire johnston thread - join the crew

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:59 pm

Source of the post The blueline would be the same, maybe Scuderi sits a bit more often?
If anything, he plays more. As a new coach, you're gonna rely on the vets who you know what you'll get from them. A new coach, especially a green head coach like we seem to want (?) is not going to sit a guy who is ticking close to 800 games of experience for David Warsofsky or Derrick Pouliot...maybe over time in practices and as need arises due to injuries, he may come to trust these players...that's no different than HCMJ or really any other coach that belongs at this level...

Coaches don't just come in and wave a magic wand. HCMJ is just now getting things to where they need to be from a defensive, fundamental standpoint...now, he can turn his attention towards offense (which he is more than capable of...I saw his Portland teams in the WHL, he was part of a good Vancouver group too)...but, of course, if you fire every coach before he gets his plan in place, you just become the Browns and it doesn't matter what kind of roster you have because you have no plan...

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Postby dodint » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:01 pm

Source of the post we seem to want (?)
WE do not WANT.

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:06 pm

It's hard to tell...the undertones of the conversations on here really seem to dictate we want Bylsma back...winning 2-1 is not fun, losing 5-4 is...that doesn't register with me personally, but uh...ya know, whatever...

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:17 pm

It's hard to tell...the undertones of the conversations on here really seem to dictate we want Bylsma back...winning 2-1 is not fun, losing 5-4 is...that doesn't register with me personally, but uh...ya know, whatever...
i wasn't a bylsma fan, but it's an interesting scenario you've posed...one where we didn't win under bylsma, and are winning under johnson, and that the nature of our losses with bylsma had anything to do with a 5-4 type of game.

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Postby FLPensFan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:18 pm

Source of the post The blueline would be the same, maybe Scuderi sits a bit more often?
If anything, he plays more. As a new coach, you're gonna rely on the vets who you know what you'll get from them. A new coach, especially a green head coach like we seem to want (?) is not going to sit a guy who is ticking close to 800 games of experience for David Warsofsky or Derrick Pouliot...maybe over time in practices and as need arises due to injuries, he may come to trust these players...that's no different than HCMJ or really any other coach that belongs at this level...

Coaches don't just come in and wave a magic wand. HCMJ is just now getting things to where they need to be from a defensive, fundamental standpoint...now, he can turn his attention towards offense (which he is more than capable of...I saw his Portland teams in the WHL, he was part of a good Vancouver group too)...but, of course, if you fire every coach before he gets his plan in place, you just become the Browns and it doesn't matter what kind of roster you have because you have no plan...
I realize it's one quote, but it summarizes what I've felt for awhile....MJ is afraid to open up the offense. He knows the defense is weak, and won't give them a chance to prove if they can do better in a more offensive, up-tempo system.

“They clogged it up in the third,” Johnston said of the Ducks. “The one thing you can’t do is open it up. And we still had four or five good chances. It’s how you manage the third period. Just don’t open it up. Play the right way.”

The Penguins’ way, of course, has always been to push offense. But there was precious little of that on display in this game.

If they were to fire MJ, I think the only way to go would be to name Sullivan interim head coach. I need to re-ask the question of Yohe/DK, but I asked a few weeks back if the Penguins were still taking the approach of AHL team playing the same system/structure as the NHL team. They weren't sure. If they are, then Sullivan seems to be getting more out of it than Johnston. I also think that if they are, the AHL club has better personnel than the NHL club for this system.

I like the idea of being able to play a tight, defensive game. It is a good tool to have when needed. But with this roster, it is not the right system to be playing night in and night out. Going out and getting Phil Kessel and then trying to play a tight defensive game are just so far at the end of the spectrum. If this is really Johnston's system, then the Penguins need to dump quite a few decent bodies to put the roster in place that can be more effective. A good, defensive 2nd line center. Probably 2 defenseman, one that can hit the net and run an actual PP........

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Postby Defence21 » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:26 pm

It's hard to tell...the undertones of the conversations on here really seem to dictate we want Bylsma back...winning 2-1 is not fun, losing 5-4 is...that doesn't register with me personally, but uh...ya know, whatever...
i wasn't a bylsma fan, but it's an interesting scenario you've posed...one where we didn't win under bylsma, and are winning under johnson, and that the nature of our losses with bylsma had anything to do with a 5-4 type of game.
That's the thing, though...they're 14-10-2. That's 14 wins, 12 losses. They're winning more than they're losing, but not by much. They're sitting in 9th place right now, and while the season is far from over, you can't just sit by and watch the team continue to crap the bed offensively and regress defensively. Consistency is hardly a trademark of this team. Something has to change. I'm all for that happening with Johnston, but it's not, and it's growing increasingly clear that it won't.

Bringing in a new coach isn't a surefire way to improve this team, but I think we're seeing that keeping Johnston isn't the right answer.

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Postby FLPensFan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:29 pm

I also think my general disdain for the NHL product gets taken out on Johnston a little bit. I've been a lifelong hockey fan, since age 5, and I just find myself more and more disinterested. I love the game but hate the way the game is played and officiated today. Unfortunately, I feel as though I have no voice to see the NHL correct what many, many fans see as problems with the league.

For the 17 years I've lived in FL after moving from Pittsburgh, I've had Center Ice every year. Watched almost every game, and if I wasn't home, DVR'd and would watch in full if I didn't happen to hear or see the score beforehand. Lately, it's just fast forward through a lot of what I'm not home to watch live. I get too frustrated with the poor officiating. I get too frustrated watching guys get clubbed in the next or elbowed in the head, only to get a 1-5 game suspension. I get too frustrated with defensive systems ruling, instead of open offense. I don't want offense of the 80's, but it sure would be nice to see more 50 goal scorers and 100 point scorers in the NHL.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:30 pm

my biggest issue is that our competitive advantage over the rest of the league has always been that we have had might have 2 of the best centers in the world on the same roster. mushing them into a "200 foot game" and playing defense first strips us of that. so what are we left with? a junk defense and an overall strategy that other teams have been doing better than us for years.

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Postby Craig » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:30 pm

It's hard to tell...the undertones of the conversations on here really seem to dictate we want Bylsma back...winning 2-1 is not fun, losing 5-4 is...that doesn't register with me personally, but uh...ya know, whatever...
Id rather flame out in the playoffs after an entertaining season rather than a boring one. They havent improved where it counts under johnson...oh and they arent winning, theyre doing worse.

Scoring isnt really the issue for me though, guys were fun to watch under therrien, todays game is bland though...with inferior results.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:31 pm

this is why we have to wait until the playoffs.


Under Bylsma, we were regular season kings and sucked in the playoffs. Sucked hard.

Under Johnston, we're middling in the regular season and are N/A in the playoffs so far. You really can't judge the Rangers series because we were so injured...we were missing 4 of our top 7 defensemen. Even if you do want to count it, we lost every game by 1 goal, including 2 overtime games. 2 lucky bounces in two of those games and we would've been up 3-2 going into game 6.

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Postby FLPensFan » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:41 pm

this is why we have to wait until the playoffs.


Under Bylsma, we were regular season kings and sucked in the playoffs. Sucked hard.

Under Johnston, we're middling in the regular season and are N/A in the playoffs so far. You really can't judge the Rangers series because we were so injured...we were missing 4 of our top 7 defensemen. Even if you do want to count it, we lost every game by 1 goal, including 2 overtime games. 2 lucky bounces in two of those games and we would've been up 3-2 going into game 6.
For the past several years, a big part of this teams issue has been scoring goals in the playoffs. I have a very hard time buying into a system that sees the team have a hard time scoring goals in the regular season, and envisioning them being able to magically score enough goals to win games in the playoffs. The fact that my 11 year old could probably beat up half the team doesn't give me a lot of hope either. Low scoring playoff games are usually lots of hitting and grinding it out for every inch. I don't see this team being constructed well for those types of games.

They have firepower. We have yet to really see it on a regular basis. I'll still repeat, if this is the system Johnston wants and thinks is necessary, than this roster is all kinds of wrong for it. Crosby, Kessel, and Letang would be the first to go in my view of making this a Johnston roster.

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:46 pm

It's hard to tell...the undertones of the conversations on here really seem to dictate we want Bylsma back...winning 2-1 is not fun, losing 5-4 is...that doesn't register with me personally, but uh...ya know, whatever...
i wasn't a bylsma fan, but it's an interesting scenario you've posed...one where we didn't win under bylsma, and are winning under johnson, and that the nature of our losses with bylsma had anything to do with a 5-4 type of game.
We had more than our fair share of playoff embarrassments...not losses, actual, face-reddening embarrassments under Bylsma...possibly the worst attempt at hockey ever played in the 2012 ECQF against Philadelphia being chief among them...it was one of the most horrifying things I had ever seen...

From 2009 to 2014, the Pens scored 3 goals in a losing effort 62 times, 4 goals, 16 times. Both are basically middle of the pack. With, naturally, a lot of losers at the top like Edmonton and Atlanta...

In that same time span, the Pens gave up 4 goals in a winning effort a league-high 35 times, and gave up 3 goals in a win a league-high 98 times (Washington is 2nd at 85).

Our offense is not wasted now, just 11 times have we scored 3 goals and not won...only a handful of teams do better than that (tied NYR (11), TB (11), LA (10), Chi (9), StL (9), Mtl (8) - so, ya know, habitual contenders...good list to be on). The Pens regulation losses when scoring 3+ under HCMJ is just 5...4th best in the NHL...and it only just happened on Saturday that we fell out of 2nd place with that criteria (5-3 loss to LA).

Only once have we scored 4 goals and not won...a shootout loss to the Isles in Nov. 2014...a game in which we trailed in the 3rd period and battled back to tie...no team has been better than the last years with 4 goals than us. Only Montreal ties that mark of 0-0-1.

What were we, 11-4-2 coming into the weekend in our last 17...? Not sure if we were supposed to play better than .700 hockey all year long, but we're in pretty good shape...this team needs some NHL talent on the blueline to supplement a good system...

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:51 pm

Source of the post From 2009 to 2014, the Pens scored 3 goals in a losing effort 62 times, 4 goals, 16 times. Both are basically middle of the pack. With, naturally, a lot of losers at the top like Edmonton and Atlanta...

In that same time span, the Pens gave up 4 goals in a winning effort a league-high 35 times, and gave up 3 goals in a win a league-high 98 times (Washington is 2nd at 85).
so we were winning 5-4. not losing 5-4. right? we lost in an average way. only less often. and your question was if that is more fun than winning 2-1.

"yes" would be my answer.

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:53 pm

my biggest issue is that our competitive advantage over the rest of the league has always been that we have had might have 2 of the best centers in the world on the same roster. mushing them into a "200 foot game" and playing defense first strips us of that. so what are we left with? a junk defense and an overall strategy that other teams have been doing better than us for years.
Having players play half the ice is not a competitive advantage. The competitive advantage is using skill to win games. The Pens have a good defensive system in place AND the offensive horses that can be let loose if we get in a tight spot. The offense is just now starting to loosen up a little...it has been constipated admittedly, but that's part of the growing pains of undoing what the last guy did...this team was playing pond hockey in Bylsma's later days, no surprise that we got found out in the playoffs...

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:54 pm

Source of the post From 2009 to 2014, the Pens scored 3 goals in a losing effort 62 times, 4 goals, 16 times. Both are basically middle of the pack. With, naturally, a lot of losers at the top like Edmonton and Atlanta...

In that same time span, the Pens gave up 4 goals in a winning effort a league-high 35 times, and gave up 3 goals in a win a league-high 98 times (Washington is 2nd at 85).
so we were winning 5-4. not losing 5-4. right? we lost in an average way. only less often. and your question was if that is more fun than winning 2-1.

"yes" would be my answer.
Having goals flying in all over the map certainly helped us in the playoffs...like when we let up 400 goals to Philadelphia or didn't score against Boston for an entire series...

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:56 pm

Source of the post I also think my general disdain for the NHL product gets taken out on Johnston a little bit
Maybe that's it. Not so much the Bylsma thing...maybe it is this. That's fair.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:58 pm

Source of the post From 2009 to 2014, the Pens scored 3 goals in a losing effort 62 times, 4 goals, 16 times. Both are basically middle of the pack. With, naturally, a lot of losers at the top like Edmonton and Atlanta...

In that same time span, the Pens gave up 4 goals in a winning effort a league-high 35 times, and gave up 3 goals in a win a league-high 98 times (Washington is 2nd at 85).
so we were winning 5-4. not losing 5-4. right? we lost in an average way. only less often. and your question was if that is more fun than winning 2-1.

"yes" would be my answer.
Having goals flying in all over the map certainly helped us in the playoffs...like when we let up 400 goals to Philadelphia or didn't score against Boston for an entire series...
to be fair, we scored 300 in the Philly series, which is pretty impressive

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Postby Rocco » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:59 pm

These things happen when the owner is checked out and trying to sell.

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:04 pm

Source of the post From 2009 to 2014, the Pens scored 3 goals in a losing effort 62 times, 4 goals, 16 times. Both are basically middle of the pack. With, naturally, a lot of losers at the top like Edmonton and Atlanta...

In that same time span, the Pens gave up 4 goals in a winning effort a league-high 35 times, and gave up 3 goals in a win a league-high 98 times (Washington is 2nd at 85).
so we were winning 5-4. not losing 5-4. right? we lost in an average way. only less often. and your question was if that is more fun than winning 2-1.

"yes" would be my answer.
Having goals flying in all over the map certainly helped us in the playoffs...like when we let up 400 goals to Philadelphia or didn't score against Boston for an entire series...
to be fair, we scored 300 in the Philly series, which is pretty impressive
That was not hockey.

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Postby Craig » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:04 pm

I dont think my problem with the team is MJ, i dont care if hes fired or not. I certai ly didnt come in here to jump on the fire MJ bandwagon. I just dont think this is a situation of results over optics and painting it that way is misguided.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:52 pm

Source of the post From 2009 to 2014, the Pens scored 3 goals in a losing effort 62 times, 4 goals, 16 times. Both are basically middle of the pack. With, naturally, a lot of losers at the top like Edmonton and Atlanta...

In that same time span, the Pens gave up 4 goals in a winning effort a league-high 35 times, and gave up 3 goals in a win a league-high 98 times (Washington is 2nd at 85).
so we were winning 5-4. not losing 5-4. right? we lost in an average way. only less often. and your question was if that is more fun than winning 2-1.

"yes" would be my answer.
Having goals flying in all over the map certainly helped us in the playoffs...like when we let up 400 goals to Philadelphia or didn't score against Boston for an entire series...
your improved alternative hasn't happened yet. if it does, it will mean good things for this franchise. but you're running purely on the hypothetical now. the reality has been barely making the playoffs in year 1 and currently standing at 9th place in year 2. will it get better? i imagine so. but it's still just a hope so far.

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Postby mikey » Mon Dec 07, 2015 2:58 pm

Source of the post will it get better? i imagine so.
Great, so we'll stick with the coach then.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:09 pm

I don't get why we have to fire him midseason. Unless you think it'll turn out to be another Bylsma-situation where we win the cup in the same year as we replace the coach (spoiler alert: it only happened once before in the history of the NHL so it's unlikely to happen this year), let's see what we get with a (hopefully) fully healthy roster in the playoffs.

IF we make it to the second round and put up a good showing in it, I don't see how we can possibly fire him.


if we lose again in the first then I'm fine with cutting the cord.

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Postby shmenguin » Mon Dec 07, 2015 3:15 pm

Source of the post will it get better? i imagine so.
Great, so we'll stick with the coach then.
-i don't like what's happening with this team.
-i don't think it's time to fire johnson
-getting "better" may still not be good enough considering the current state

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Postby King Colby » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:04 am

Shero handcuffed the team. Rutherford didn't do anything about it. Rutherford then armed the coach with a really really bad D corps. The coach handled it by employing a more defensive system where the forwards help insulate a poor defense. The coach gets fired for lack of offense.

Sounds about right.

Won't matter who the coach is. There are waaaay bigger problems than that and they are unlikely to begin to move toward resolution until the 13 million tied up in 3 guys in their late 30s comes off the books in 2 years.

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