Pens D on opening day

Postby **Hugo Stiglitz** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:58 pm

Reporting on the reports... just seems like a "why even bother" type of situation.

Well since this is a thread about what we can expect the Pens' D to be on opening day, seemed like relevant information... or maybe you guys just look to jump on someone for ANYTHING.

If it means anything, Pouliot got glowing reviews from game 2. Oooops, sorry. Didn't meant to give info on a relevant subject. Won't happen again.

On a side note, I'm not Anti-Pouliot, so that was purely unbiased information.

Postby **Craig** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:18 pm

I am anti pouliot. I dont care what he did this offseason...i dont see how he could have learned to play defense. I look forward to more discount mike green this season.

That said, i think he is a long term asset to this team. As a player, not as a trade chip. I hope that happens this season and if it does, im all for growing pains.

Postby **Algernon** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:26 pm

Despres >>>>> pouliot

Postby **King Colby** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:39 am

I picked letang, maatta, cole, lovejoy, scuderi, and gonchar.

Then i started making other plans for late April.

Postby **Gaucho** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:02 am

Postby **Hugo Stiglitz** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:13 pm

I am anti pouliot. I dont care what he did this offseason...i dont see how he could have learned to play defense. I look forward to more discount mike green this season.

That said, i think he is a long term asset to this team. As a player, not as a trade chip. I hope that happens this season and if it does, im all for growing pains.

I don't think it's about "learning" to play defense. It's about adjusting to the speed, committing and being more aware to play in his own end which is very teachable/coachable.

Postby **Hugo Stiglitz** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:17 pm

I am anti pouliot. I dont care what he did this offseason...i dont see how he could have learned to play defense. I look forward to more discount mike green this season.

That said, i think he is a long term asset to this team. As a player, not as a trade chip. I hope that happens this season and if it does, im all for growing pains.
I don't think it's about "learning" to play defense. It's about adjusting to the speed, committing and being more aware to play in his own end which is very teachable/coachable.

I think too often defenseman like Pouliot are rushed and not properly eased into the game. They flash such strong offensive skills that coaches allow them to do what they want and just hope the defensive side of the game will come.

This is why I hoped the Pens would have picked up a top-four dman or re-signed Martin or Ehrhoff to bump Pouliot down to a third pairing for the year. Pouliot should pay sheltered minutes his first full season.

Postby **Craig** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:17 pm

So hes supposed to just "be more aware", but its not about learning. Got it.

Postby **Hugo Stiglitz** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:19 pm

So hes supposed to just "be more aware", but its not about learning. Got it.

Semantics, and yes. Call it being more aware, committing to play in your own end, whatever it is. Players can totally be coached. Just look at Ovie.

Postby **Hugo Stiglitz** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:24 pm

On a side note, Pouliot shouldn't be expected to be a defensive stalwart. If he can hone his offensive game while becoming responsible in his own end, it's a win.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:43 pm

The key is knowing the fundamental principles of defense...the execution is what develops the most...the intuition and anticipation of a play, generally, cannot be taught or coached, that needs to be the building block on which coaching can occur...

That's why a player like Cody Franson or Dion Phaneuf has played the same caliber and quality of defense from the second they stepped into the NHL until the second they intend to step on the ice next...no clue how to get better, no hope for improvement...

Players like Cam Fowler, Kris Russell, T.J. Brodie, etc. had the idea of fundamental principles of defensive play and combined it with their ability to anticipate and "piece the game together" in their heads, so the coaching stuck and they could apply other pieces to the puzzle and it starts to snowball on a player in a positive way...next thing you know, they're the bell cow for both offense and defense...

Postby **tfrizz** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:33 am

Yes he does, and so does Dumoulin, if I'm not mistaken. This could mean more AHL time for Pouliot.
Everything I've read, multiple places, have Pouliot a 1000% lock to make this team. Even though he is the only one with AHL options, it seems to be the last thing Pens want to do.....even if it means waiving a player.

Letang, Maata, Cole, Pouliot, Lovejoy, Dumoulin, and Scuderi as the 7th. I'd really like to see the Pens just send Scuderi down, but I think they will at least see what he can do this season. If he's awful, I'd expect him to be sent down and a younger guy like Erixon or Clendenning to come up. There are too many players at or very close to Scuderi's level of play for 1/4 of the cost.

I don't see any moves being made on defense until December/January at the earliest.

If they don't make the opening day roster, they won't be with the organization any longer. There's no way either of them clear waivers.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:47 am

I think they could both clear at this point...maybe someone would take a crack at Clendening because of his handedness...

People get all knotted up over waivers and things, but like I've explained before, picture it in real terms...you go through all your training camp, preseason, workouts, team-building, yada yada, all that stuff...and then a day or so before your first game of the year, your management group goes, "this other fringe NHL d-man, is better than our current fringe NHL d-man" let's get him and his contract because he is a clear upgrade over the group we drafted and developed or recently acquired...he makes our 23-man group better right now and will continue to do so throughout the year...

That's tough, that's why hundreds of players go on waivers during the year and only a small handful get claimed...

Now, I'm not saying Erixon and Clendening can't get claimed...but the market is very limited for each of them at this point, very limited, and say you time it right where you waive Clendening the same day as say, Stefan Elliot and Tim Erixon the same day as say, Brandon Gormley, my thought is that both of them get through unscathed...

But we're a little ways off from that...who knows what happens between now and then...

Postby **Beveridge** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 9:58 am

But we're a little ways off from that...who knows what happens between now and then...

2-3 injuries on the blue line is what.

Postby **bhflyhigh** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:00 pm

Reporting on the reports... just seems like a "why even bother" type of situation.

Reported

Postby **meecrofilm** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:57 pm

Well played, sir.

Postby **Hugo Stiglitz** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:34 pm

The key is knowing the fundamental principles of defense...the execution is what develops the most...the intuition and anticipation of a play, generally, cannot be taught or coached, that needs to be the building block on which coaching can occur...

That's why a player like Cody Franson or Dion Phaneuf has played the same caliber and quality of defense from the second they stepped into the NHL until the second they intend to step on the ice next...no clue how to get better, no hope for improvement...

Players like Cam Fowler, Kris Russell, T.J. Brodie, etc. had the idea of fundamental principles of defensive play and combined it with their ability to anticipate and "piece the game together" in their heads, so the coaching stuck and they could apply other pieces to the puzzle and it starts to snowball on a player in a positive way...next thing you know, they're the bell cow for both offense and defense...

I agree that intuition cannot be taught, but becoming more aware and responsible can be coached. For ever player like Franson and Phaneuf, there is a Del Zotto and Ovie. Clearly I'm not making an apples to apples comparison with any of those players, but players can be coached to become more committed to defensive/responsible play.

In the case of Pouliot, I don't think anyone can realistically expect him to become a defensive machine and learn all these new defensive skills or instincts, but he can definitely be coached into shifting his focus and becoming a more responsible player.

We also need to give a little room to Pouliot because he needs to get adjusted to the speed of NHL play. I know that's a phrase we utter for many newish players, but it's the reality. I think the problem that will arise when it comes to Pouliot is expecting too much from him too soon. IMO Pouliot will fail to meet expectations if he's thrusted into playing 18 minutes a night on the 2nd unit.

Ideally JR will pick up a top four guy which will allow Pouliot to play a full season on the bottom pair and get his feet wet that way.

Postby **Defence21** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:23 am

I didn't see this elsewhere, and while it's a few days after the fact, I thought I'd share.

During Tuesday's "Legends With the Fans," a 93.7 The Fan monthly live gathering with Bob Pompeani, Jim Rutherford and Ed Johnston discussed their histories as NHL goalies and executives. When Pomp brought up the current roster, and specifically Gonchar, Rutherford said he was brought in to be a calming presence on defense for the young players, to share his vast knowledge, to teach his skills, and to make the team. He said this was not a favor to Gonchar, but rather a real attempt at seeing if he has one last season in him. If his camp goes well, he will have a contract. Maybe that's lip service, but maybe it's the truth. Either way, having Gonchar in camp is a very good thing for this team. Him making the team, on the other hand, clearly is debatable.

On a partially related note, Darren Dreger said earlier this week -- and I can't recall where I read this, now, as I was traveling for work and reading on my cell phone -- that the Penguins are looking to trade Scuderi, but that he believes no trade options will arise until sometime around 15 games into the season, when teams begin to truly see what they have and who is fitting in/who is not. Of course, injuries could speed the process, should a team become desperate for an NHL defenseman.

My opinion on both topics: Gonchar would be nice to have around the room. Fans are polarized on leadership -- some think it's real and legitimate, others think it's a way to give an otherwise useless player a meaningful attribute. When players/coaches/GMs discuss leadership and the need to have it in the room, I tend to believe them over someone who's never been there. So, if the Pens are in need of leadership or, at the very least, a calming locker room presence, I'd much rather Gonchar fill the 7th defense spot at $1 million, than Scuderi at nearly $4 million. Gonchar has more to offer the young defensemen of this team. Most of the youngsters play a two-way game, much more similar to Gonchar's than Scuderi's. Additionally, Scuderi strikes me more as a "just do it right" guy rather than a teaching guy. I don't get the mentor vibe from him, whereas Gonchar clearly enjoys interacting with young players.

Long post, but one final point. Leadership isn't about willing a team to win. It's about encouraging a positive environment for everyone, having fun while working hard, picking up players when they made big mistakes or had bad games, and instilling confidence in the team when things look bleak. Nothing anyone says will win a game. Players need to execute. But when there are players in the room that create a positive environment, others will be more motivated to play their best, which can lead to wins. I'm done

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Fri Sep 18, 2015 3:15 pm

TL;DR

Postby **Avyran** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:29 pm

Very early into the training camp:

Let’s take note of the defensive pairings we’ve seen so far in camp. We have Letang with Maatta, Ian Cole with Brian Dumoulin and Ben Lovejoy with Pouliot. Hmmm. Wouldn’t be a shock at all if that’s your starting six when the Penguins head to Dallas next month. But we’ll see.

Pairing 1, pairing 3a/3b.

Postby **columbia** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:32 pm

Short of an acquisition (or Gonchar

), it's not going to get any better.

If you like goals, this is the team for you.

Postby **MalkinIsMyHomeboy** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:10 pm

that is such a young defensive core

I don't necessarily have a problem with it (but that's because I'm really high on Cole)

not that it matters because half our team is going to get injured anyway

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 4:31 pm

I guess we'll go after Dan Hamhuis (again) as a rental at the deadline when Vancouver is out of it...but we're disadvantaged as we don't have a 2016 1st...

I know the Avs are short on d-men, but right now I would maybe kick tires on Zach Redmond, as I feel he is an upgrade on the best six we have now...it's kind of a shot in the dark so to speak, but between Cole/Redmond/Pouliot, surely we can pull one second-pairing d-man out of that group this season...right?

Postby **Craig** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:33 pm

Hamhuis? Sweet. Can we get zanon too?

Postby **Hugo Stiglitz** » Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:56 pm

Plotnikov has been so far getting great reviews in camp albeit early on. Could the success of Plotnikov create the ability to move a major asset for a dman? Let's say Plotnikov shows he's top-six worthy and could knock Kunitz or Perron out of the top six; do you guys think that realistically creates a situation where Perron or Kunitz could be moved for a top four dman?

There has already been talk of Dupuis getting slotted next to Sid on the LW which would leave only one LW spot open, so Plotnikov being capable of playing with Malkin could really make things interesting.