Fifth Avenue Forum

@mikey: Thoughts on this trade? I'm not familiar with Gruden.

Value makes sense...I don't know Gruden that well...I think he's a forecheck/nose for the net guy, but without a lot of upside...I'll do a write-up on him when I watch all of our picks tonight...

It's pretty difficult to be sad about Murray's trajectory here. 2 Cups in 5 years? I'll take that. Thanks for your service.

Murray's issue was always consistency. Some nights he was absolutely lights out, and then the next anything was getting by him. Thanks for the Cups, but enjoy Ottawa.

It still feels very much like a mish-mash of parts, but at the very least the mish-mash no longer contains Jack Johnson.

I know you're the resident top JJ hater, but I hope you do understand that the impact of his departure is small.

Maybe so, but considering how bad he was for us, especially in the playoffs, I think it's a net win.

It is. But its like issue #7 on a list of 12

Murray's issue was always consistency. Some nights he was absolutely lights out, and then the next anything was getting by him. Thanks for the Cups, but enjoy Ottawa.

Counterpoint. Murray got as the team got worse - not surprising. Which influenced the other more? Chicken and the egg?

Chicken and chicken...they both concurrently got worse, largely independent of each other...but probably the team first slightly...

Murray's issue was always consistency. Some nights he was absolutely lights out, and then the next anything was getting by him. Thanks for the Cups, but enjoy Ottawa.

Counterpoint. Murray got as the team got worse - not surprising. Which influenced the other more? Chicken and the egg?

You very well may be right.

@meow is his high glove weakness fixable at this point in his career? or is he too ingrained in his ways to really be able to develop a defense against it?

I'll preface this by saying I don't know anything about goalie mechanics:

That being said; for a big guy, he always seemed to make himself play small in the net. He always looked hunched over. That seemed like a worse problem to me than "high glove".

I'll preface this by saying I don't know anything about goalie mechanics:

That being said; for a big guy, he always seemed to make himself play small in the net. He always looked hunched over. That seemed like a worse problem to me than "high glove".

yeah, that's probably the base cause of the issues he has on top shelf shots. You're weak to high shots if you play low (I guess that's the main detriment of the butterfly style). But he seemed particularly weak on the glove side.

I wonder if there's a goals allowed heat map for goalies and location of the goals

I'll always be greatful for helping win those 2 cups, but it was time for a change. Wish him all the best.

@meow is his high glove weakness fixable at this point in his career? or is he too ingrained in his ways to really be able to develop a defense against it?

Not to a level that would make a difference. He just doesn’t have it. It’s a hand eye coordination thing that is non existent. He doesn’t track the puck well AND doesn’t have the hand-eye to catch it. Tough to overcome.

Should have played more baseball as a kid

I am very happy with this trade. We got a mid second pick for a player that we couldn't afford anymore. The extra player is worth nothing to me.

I would like to pick up a bad 1 year left contract for another draft pick if possible. Pick + Fleury as backup would have been awesome if we had the cap space. Or an overpaid center. Captain obvious, I know;)

I'll preface this by saying I don't know anything about goalie mechanics:

That being said; for a big guy, he always seemed to make himself play small in the net. He always looked hunched over. That seemed like a worse problem to me than "high glove".

There is a camp, that I am a part of, that says being comfortable in your stance is way more important than the amount of net you cover. There has to be a balance obviously, but I would not put him in the “he plays too small” group of goalies. Optically, I certainly see what people are saying, but stopping pucks is so damn hard sometimes that you gotta be comfortable first and worry about coverage second.

I have terribad reflexes so I do like Murray when I play floorball. I try to cover as much of the angle/net as possible and hope that the ball hits me...

I'll preface this by saying I don't know anything about goalie mechanics:

That being said; for a big guy, he always seemed to make himself play small in the net. He always looked hunched over. That seemed like a worse problem to me than "high glove".

yeah, that's probably the base cause of the issues he has on top shelf shots. You're weak to high shots if you play low (I guess that's the main detriment of the butterfly style). But he seemed particularly weak on the glove side.

I wonder if there's a goals allowed heat map for goalies and location of the goals

There is a heat map for goaltenders and where goals are scored on them, but I can't find it anywhere. Probably saw it a year ago, and Murray was middle of the pack in terms of allowing goals glove side in comparison to other starters. NBCSN put up one during the playoffs last month during one of the games(I think Canes-B's)showing that Halak had the highest percentage of goals scored against him glove side at 30% vs NHL average of 25%.

To me, it's not the quantity of goals scored glove side on Murray as much as the quality. Those goals look ugly and Murray reacts late and like the puck is a fireball. When it does hit his glove the puck generally drops right out instead of a clean grab. It's like he never played catch as a kid growing up.

I'd agree he plays small too often especially considering his size. When his confidence isn't high, he plays too deep and crouches, then overreacts. I'm not sure the goalie teaching he's received has been an issue or if he's not responsive to coaching but I think a lot of his woes are mostly mental as well as the league figuring him out. During the 2 Cup runs, he was unbeatable low like a Lundqvist in his prime and that's where everyone was shooting. Players started to realize that wasn't going to work.

All of that said, I was a real supporter until this past playoff when it was time for Jarry to get the nod as TJ would likely have given you the best chance of winning and is the obvious goaltender going forward, not Murray, who would be leaving after the playoffs no matter what.

Yeah, I generally agree with all that...particularly the "quality" part...

I think Murray can be a very competent goalie on a team that does a better job of insulating him. The Pens were very good at that during the cup runs and not so much now. When Murray isn’t insulated, I just think a lot of his flaws show. He’s not super athletic, doesn’t follow the puck super well and his glove has been talked about extensively

I think his downturn is a combo of the downturn in our defensive structure and a downturn in his game

Lots of wisdom on this page

Odds of Murray being a starting goalie in 2 years...40%?

I'll take the over I think...

Gimme that over.

Is the win loss on that 100% or 0%? He either is or isn't?

I think if you bet over 40% and hes a starter it just pays out higher

I saw this post bumped and had completely forgotten this happened in October.