GDT #50 Pens vs Canes, 07:00 ET

[MR25]

Pens looked fine without Reaves in the lineup

[shmenguin]

Rust is ready for action. Get him a Center. And get hags to line 4

[mikey]

Carolina is gonna be really good, they're about two skill guys away probably...that defense is already a wagon and I don't care much for TVR or even Haydn Fleury and it's still really good. Good team win for us last night. Big guns were good. DeSmith was very strong again. Looks like night and day from his first two to his last two...looks like he kind of takes a little of Tristan Jarry's game with him now...

I don't like to be the guy to pile on, but I wish Letang would get better...I cursed him out a few times last night...

[dodint]

There is no 'get better', he's aging and ailing and this is your new normal. The athleticism is gone and he's not going to get smart. You [people] wanted him for ever and ever and this is what you have.

[mikey]

Yes there is. He's not this bad at hockey. Sergei Gonchar went through this as well and shaped himself up when he got here late in his career and was a #1 d-man on a Cup champion. Letang having a bad 50 games isn't going to make me panic.

[dodint]

Sure, if you count the games he's actually played in the last few years it does seem like a pretty short time, doesn't it?

[mikey]

Yes. Players don't play bad when they're not playing. The knock on Letang was that he can't stay on the ice because of strokes and spontaneous pregnancy and whatever else. That doesn't deeply concern me. It's concerning, sure, but I'm not flustered by it. When he played, he was a fringe Norris caliber player. Now, that he's not holding up his end of the deal, some concern can start to creep in.

What Letang looks like right now and what he's playing like right now is a Bylsma holdover circa 2013. His game is so complicated and looks some pressurized that he's interpreting that the game is moving about 1.5x as fast as it actually is...typically, good players are playing the game at about 0.75x speed, he's on the wrong side of par...I wonder what's being done by both parties to address this.

I don't read anything about the team, so is anyone aware of any comments about Letang (either from him or from coaches)...the all-star game nod might give partial validation to what has been a poor season, which I don't like...

[shmenguin]

it seems pretty simple. he needs to understand that at this moment, he isn't capable of being exceptional. if he tries, he will hurt the team. so keep it simple. don't try all this fancy bullshit with the puck. you aren't good enough right now. you can't shoot or pass between people's skates. so don't try. you can't make slick plays in your own end. so don't try. just skate your ass off and play simple until you fix it.

it's a binary choice for him. he can either be fairly ordinary (but stable) for the time being, or he can suck. he just needs to understand the choice.

[mikey]

Right. Simplify. For some players, that's easier than others. For Letang, "simplify" is probably like climbing a mountain...

[meow]

it seems pretty simple. he needs to understand that at this moment, he isn't capable of being exceptional. if he tries, he will hurt the team. so keep it simple. don't try all this fancy bullshit with the puck. you aren't good enough right now. you can't shoot or pass between people's skates. so don't try. you can't make slick plays in your own end. so don't try. just skate your ass off and play simple until you fix it.

it's a binary choice for him. he can either be fairly ordinary (but stable) for the time being, or he can suck. he just needs to understand the choice.

While I agree with this #hottake, it is difficult to tell a 30 year old to simmer down on the fancy stuff when he has done said fancy stuff his entire life. Fans might roll their eyes at that, but asking Letang to bang one off the glass or dump it into the corner...tough ask for the player.

[shmenguin]

Right. Simplify. For some players, that's easier than others. For Letang, "simplify" is probably like climbing a mountain...

i know he's having trouble DOING it, but he has to understand, intellectually, what it means. right?

but he's not going to do it until he realizes he can't just push through until his brain + hands + feet all work together correctly. he needs to understand it's the only option. bottoming out is the most effective way to do this in life, and probably hockey too. but he's the point man on the #1 power play in the universe and he's still on the top pair at ES (I think), which is probably the starting point for all the rationalizing he's doing to convince himself he's ok.

tough love time, coaches. he needs to understand how much he sucks this year.

[Gaucho]

[dodint]

Yes. Players don't play bad when they're not playing. The knock on Letang was that he can't stay on the ice because of strokes and spontaneous pregnancy and whatever else. That doesn't deeply concern me. It's concerning, sure, but I'm not flustered by it. When he played, he was a fringe Norris caliber player. Now, that he's not holding up his end of the deal, some concern can start to creep in.

Ignoring his long absences is a bit naive. Players, particularly those with neck meat surgery, do not get healthier with age. And it's not just the stroke or other 'natural' injuries, he puts himself into situations where he relies on the goodwill of opponents not to splatter him into the third row. If he were making $4m a year it would be easier to ignore, but he's locked up to a boat anchor contract for the next hundred years or so. Overall as an asset he's a liability in his current and likely future condition.

[mikey]

it seems pretty simple. he needs to understand that at this moment, he isn't capable of being exceptional. if he tries, he will hurt the team. so keep it simple. don't try all this fancy bullshit with the puck. you aren't good enough right now. you can't shoot or pass between people's skates. so don't try. you can't make slick plays in your own end. so don't try. just skate your ass off and play simple until you fix it.

it's a binary choice for him. he can either be fairly ordinary (but stable) for the time being, or he can suck. he just needs to understand the choice.

While I agree with this #hottake, it is difficult to tell a 30 year old to simmer down on the fancy stuff when he has done said fancy stuff his entire life. Fans might roll their eyes at that, but asking Letang to bang one off the glass or dump it into the corner...tough ask for the player.

Yes, it is. Especially as one as competitive as Letang. He fits the mold of the player that will tie himself in a knot before he loosens up...

[Jim]

Pens looked fine without Reaves in the lineup

I wonder what Hornqvist's opinion on that is...

[mikey]

Right. Simplify. For some players, that's easier than others. For Letang, "simplify" is probably like climbing a mountain...

i know he's having trouble DOING it, but he has to understand, intellectually, what it means. right?

but he's not going to do it until he realizes he can't just push through until his brain + hands + feet all work together correctly. he needs to understand it's the only option. bottoming out is the most effective way to do this in life, and probably hockey too. but he's the point man on the #1 power play in the universe and he's still on the top pair at ES (I think), which is probably the starting point for all the rationalizing he's doing to convince himself he's ok.

tough love time, coaches. he needs to understand how much he sucks this year.

You're not wrong. He's also top-10 among all league d-men in assists and TOI...he was also named to an all-star team that the league leader in assists was not named to. Please don't construe that as me justifying his play, I don't like it. But understand that this crap version of a terrific player is still producing box score dandies...and is getting laurels for it. You're gonna make an all-star a healthy? In January? When you're out of a playoff spot? Tough sell.

As for the first question: Understands? Probably. What it means to him vs what it means to me, you, Coach Sullivan, etc. is a different story. I actually wonder how this is being addressed internally...though, I think "if" would fit better in that sentence...

[mikey]

Pens looked fine without Reaves in the lineup

I wonder what Hornqvist's opinion on that is...

Yeah, don't even bother. He's got an ax to grind. The one time he didn't try to snipe Reaves (and it's every. single. time. he's brought up) was when there was video explanation of what he was doing...the "hey, we're 1-0 against a last place team when he doesn't play his four minutes" thing is for the birds...popcorn or no popcorn...it stinks.

[mikey]

Yes. Players don't play bad when they're not playing. The knock on Letang was that he can't stay on the ice because of strokes and spontaneous pregnancy and whatever else. That doesn't deeply concern me. It's concerning, sure, but I'm not flustered by it. When he played, he was a fringe Norris caliber player. Now, that he's not holding up his end of the deal, some concern can start to creep in.

Ignoring his long absences is a bit naive. Players, particularly those with neck meat surgery, do not get healthier with age. And it's not just the stroke or other 'natural' injuries, he puts himself into situations where he relies on the goodwill of opponents not to splatter him into the third row. If he were making $4m a year it would be easier to ignore, but he's locked up to a boat anchor contract for the next hundred years or so. Overall as an asset he's a liability in his current and likely future condition.

Two different conversations. Happy to blend them, but that's not where I started. His on-ice play was the prompt -- his inability to play period is a different matter. Your opinion on his injury and contract are valid, but that's not where I was going with the conversation...it's a GDT, it didn't seem like the venue for it...not that I'm against it, but I just want to be clear what my talking point was in reference to...

[Lemon Berry Lobster]

Pens looked fine without Reaves in the lineup

I wonder what Hornqvist's opinion on that is...

Similar to how Letang and Schultz felt last week when they got hit with cheap shots while Reaves was in the line-up?

[shmenguin]

He's also top-10 among all league d-men in assists and TOI...he was also named to an all-star team that the league leader in assists was not named to. Please don't construe that as me justifying his play, I don't like it. But understand that this crap version of a terrific player is still producing box score dandies...and is getting laurels for it. You're gonna make an all-star a healthy? In January? When you're out of a playoff spot? Tough sell.

there is no shortage of rationalization material, that's for sure. it would be veeeeery easy for him to think he's doing ok

[mikey]

Pens looked fine without Reaves in the lineup

I wonder what Hornqvist's opinion on that is...

Similar to how Letang and Schultz felt last week when they got hit with cheap shots while Reaves was in the line-up?

Disband all police precincts, there's still crime...so they're pointless!

[Jim]

From what I hear, ignorance is bliss.

Must be why I am so angry all of the time...

[dodint]

Yes. Players don't play bad when they're not playing. The knock on Letang was that he can't stay on the ice because of strokes and spontaneous pregnancy and whatever else. That doesn't deeply concern me. It's concerning, sure, but I'm not flustered by it. When he played, he was a fringe Norris caliber player. Now, that he's not holding up his end of the deal, some concern can start to creep in.

Ignoring his long absences is a bit naive. Players, particularly those with neck meat surgery, do not get healthier with age. And it's not just the stroke or other 'natural' injuries, he puts himself into situations where he relies on the goodwill of opponents not to splatter him into the third row. If he were making $4m a year it would be easier to ignore, but he's locked up to a boat anchor contract for the next hundred years or so. Overall as an asset he's a liability in his current and likely future condition.

Two different conversations. Happy to blend them, but that's not where I started. His on-ice play was the prompt -- his inability to play period is a different matter. Your opinion on his injury and contract are valid, but that's not where I was going with the conversation...it's a GDT, it didn't seem like the venue for it...not that I'm against it, but I just want to be clear what my talking point was in reference to...

Fair.

[MR25]

Pens looked fine without Reaves in the lineup

I wonder what Hornqvist's opinion on that is...

Yeah, don't even bother. He's got an ax to grind. The one time he didn't try to snipe Reaves (and it's every. single. time. he's brought up) was when there was video explanation of what he was doing...the "hey, we're 1-0 against a last place team when he doesn't play his four minutes" thing is for the birds...popcorn or no popcorn...it stinks.

Give me one winger who played last night that Reaves is better than.






I'll wait. A long time, probably .

[mikey]

At his role, he is better than Simon, Sheary and Hagelin at the minimum...

Unless you meant like a video game rating, in that case probably no one...