Fifth Avenue Forum

The tl;dr of my last three sentences...

1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Howe
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Bobby Hull

I sometimes consider switching 3 and 4. More rarely I consider switching 5 and 6...those are the only changes I ever really consider...

I go...
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Jagr
4. Malkin
5. Either Marty Straka or Alexei (not Alex) Kovalev

I go...
1. Lemieux
2. Crosby
3. Jagr
4. Malkin
5. Either Marty Straka or Alexei (not Alex) Kovalev

my man

Not Francis, Coffey, Pronovost, Murphy, Apps in that 5 hole...?

Not Francis, Coffey, Pronovost, Murphy, Apps in that 5 hole...?

Nope. 7 is Dick Tarnstrom.

Okay, you said "Lemieux: #4 player ever, maybe #3 I suppose. In terms of career value at least. Probably the most technically skilled player ever. But, like Orr, just not enough of the good stuff." so I thought that you had Orr at 3/4. but if you have Lemieux at 4, Gretzky 1, Orr 2, who is 3?

Ovechkin

So what time does TSN start their free agency frenzy coverage?

Jim, look up

My subconscious must have blinded me to that post due to its insanity.

All I got is time...you'd have a quite a hill to climb. I know you're not 25 years old, Jim...so I'm hoping there isn't some dumb anti-Howe, anti-Orr stance coming my way...

Source of the post 4. Lemieux

Bring it, b*tch boys...

Says the lady who filters her own words...

I like dodint, so I'm not gonna slander his good name you ****** NTP66...

All I got is time...you'd have a quite a hill to climb. I know you're not 25 years old, Jim...so I'm hoping there isn't some dumb anti-Howe, anti-Orr stance coming my way...

No issues with Orr.

All I got is time...you'd have a quite a hill to climb. I know you're not 25 years old, Jim...so I'm hoping there isn't some dumb anti-Howe, anti-Orr stance coming my way...

Where do you get all your spare time? :O

To me it depends a little on how you view this
-career value?
-peak?

I will handle career value in next post to avoid a super long answer.

I interpret this as that you are playing a 7 game series versus another team, where you have access to all players at the peak of their skills when they played for the team. This sucks for Pens, since I would really have liked to count Trottier at his prime

If we should field a whole roster, I think that Pens might be the best with Montreal and Detroit closest. Boston and Edmonton are good, however...

If it is to field the best line, then both Oilers and Pens cheats since they are using two centers. In a 7-game series I would say

Lemieux >= Gretzky
Crosby >= McDavid
Jagr > Kurri
Coffey =< Coffey
Letang > Lowe
Fleary =< Fuhr
So this would mean a win for Pens

Yes, I would pick Lemieux over Gretzky when I want to play only a few games.

I value prime first and foremost because I want impact seasons and then I value career value. Ultimately, it's best summed up as "impact seasons" for me...

While I have Lemieux as the 4th (3rd on a good day) best player of all time. If someone asked me: Aliens have challenged us to a 1 on 1, single game to save the planet -- who do you put out? My answer is Lemieux. I almost never look at questions in that lens though...

Re: Career Value.

Granted, I have not seen very much from Orr and Howe, so I will mostly skip them and defend Lemieux.

Lemieux won his last Art Ross 1997, which was over 12 years since his first game.

He finished 8th in scoring (granted, it was a weak season with Murray 7th :fp) in 2002-2003, his 18th season. Age 38.

His 2000-2001 season was insane, but only half :/ 35+41 in 43 games. Jagr won the Art Ross with 52+69 and Elias in 3d had 40+46.

So I would argue that he was elite for at least 12 years. And over a time span of 16 years. Natuarlly, the drawback is that you can't be sure when he plays.

But when he plays, what a player. Who has had a better peak? Orr? Gretzky? Lindros? Some guy that died before the 2nd world war?

I value prime first and foremost because I want impact seasons and then I value career value. Ultimately, it's best summed up as "impact seasons" for me...

While I have Lemieux as the 4th (3rd on a good day) best player of all time. If someone asked me: Aliens have challenged us to a 1 on 1, single game to save the planet -- who do you put out? My answer is Lemieux. I almost never look at questions in that lens though...

Agreed =) But as I stated in the post above, he is certainly not a one hit wonder.

Edit: But here I meant what the purpose was with the NHL game where each team was represented by 6 players. I interpreted it as players in their prime for their team.

Lemieux? A stone cold lock for top 4 player of all time...yeah, not a one hit wonder.

But then it opens up all kinds of things...the Fogartys of the world, etc.

Lemieux? A stone cold lock for top 4 player of all time...yeah, not a one hit wonder.

But then it opens up all kinds of things...the Fogartys of the world, etc.

Yeah, I know that you value Lemieux quite appropriate;)

I was mainly trying to make an argument against people that claim that Lemieux is not one of the greatest ever because of injuries/ not performing during enough number of seasons.

Oh, yeah, those people can kick rocks...

I was going to ask where Howe would rank if he retired in his mid-30s, then realised he had a 103-point season (76 GP) at age 40...

Howe facts concerning his peak mostly:

- Howe won six Hart trophies. Only one player (Gretzky) won more. Howe won twice as many Hart trophies as the next closest forwards

- Howe was a Hart finalist (top three) twelve times - the most in the NHL history. Gretzky was second with eleven times. The next closest players are Hull (eight times) and Beliveau, Orr and Lemieux (seven times each).

- Howe won the Art Ross trophy six times. Only one player (Gretzky) won more, and Lemieux won just as many.

- Howe led the playoffs in scoring six times, which ties him with Gretzky. The next closest players have led the playoffs in scoring only three times (Esposito and Lafleur).

- On a combined basis (regular season and playoffs), Howe led the league in scoring twelve times. Only Gretzky did so more often (a staggering seventeen times). The next closest players are Esposito and Lemieux (eight times each).

- Howe is the only player in NHL history (aside from Gretzky, obviously) to win multiple Art Ross trophies by a 20% margin (which he did in 1951, 1952, 1953).

- Howe is one of only a handful of players to lead the league in goals and assists at least three times each (the others were Esposito, Gretzky, and Lemieux).

- After the 1955 season, Howe had the highest-scoring season in NHL history, the 2nd highest, the 3rd highest, and the 5th highest.

- After the 1955 season, Howe also had the highest-scoring playoff run in NHL history. Even at the end of the Original Six era, when scoring rose significantly, he still had the 2nd and (tied for) 3rd highest-scoring playoff runs ever.

- Howe led his team in scoring 10 times in the playoffs. Only Gretzky has done that more (14 times).