mikey's Thread of Penguin Randomness

[shmenguin]

I know historical comparisons are difficult, but when there are all these competitive advantages to be had, like, "shoot anywhere near corners", it becomes easier for an elite group of players to differentiate from the competition. Which just isn't a thing anymore. Stats are more uniform because the holes to exploit are closing - and not just with goalies.

It feels like, from the mid-90's on, a demarcation point happened where you just can't compare eras. I'm comfortable in saying Sid might be the best player, post 1995. But you can't go any further back, because you always have this Gretzky armor about how many standard deviations he was from the next guy. And I just don't buy that he should just be the defacto best player of all time - which he will be, even if someone clearly better comes along (which I think have)

[AuthorTony]

Even despite the different eras, I struggle to accept that any modern day forward is better than Gretzky and Lemieux when it comes to the offensive side of the game.

[meow]

Brace for mikey saying someone that carved their own stick and survived the Spanish Flu was the best

[Gaucho]

Blueger signs a 2-year extension with the Pens.

[shmenguin]

Even despite the different eras, I struggle to accept that any modern day forward is better than Gretzky and Lemieux when it comes to the offensive side of the game.

I don’t think McDavid is as skilled but I think he might be the most effective offensive player of all time. Adjusted for era of course. and I want to find a better word than “effective” but I don’t know what that might be.

*might be* - don’t @ me

[AuthorTony]

I'll @ you all I want.

I know I'm biased because I grew up watching Gretzky and Lemieux, but I've just never see anyone, especially Lemieux, dominate the opposition the way he did. And yes, I know goalies and coaching are better today, but I also consider in the fact that the guys in the 80s/early 90s didn't have a fraction of the conditioning that today's athletes have. Lemieux could and often did single-handedly control games even when he smoked like a fiend and barely worked out. Even when his back was so bad that he couldn't tie his own skates and barely participated in workouts, he was a force on the ice.

[NTP66]

I'll @ you all I want.

I know I'm biased because I grew up watching Gretzky and Lemieux, but I've just never see anyone, especially Lemieux, dominate the opposition the way he did. And yes, I know goalies and coaching are better today, but I also consider in the fact that the guys in the 80s/early 90s didn't have a fraction of the conditioning that today's athletes have. Lemieux could and often did single-handedly control games even when he smoked like a fiend and barely worked out. Even when his back was so bad that he couldn't tie his own skates and barely participated in workouts, he was a force on the ice.

Same. It also seemed like every time Lemieux had the puck, he had a defender literally on his back trying to hold him, and he still made the plays that he made. You simply don't see that anymore, and had that not existed back in the 90s, Lemieux would have shattered records with ease.

[MR25]

Even when Mario came back from 3 years of retirement, he put up

76 points in 43 games
31 in 24
91 in 67
9 in 10
22 in 26

[mikey]

Even despite the different eras, I struggle to accept that any modern day forward is better than Gretzky and Lemieux when it comes to the offensive side of the game.

It's true.

**** you meow...haha

Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux are the four best players to ever play. No one else is close...

[shmenguin]

I admit. That one seems immediately regrettable.

[Pavel Bure]

Even despite the different eras, I struggle to accept that any modern day forward is better than Gretzky and Lemieux when it comes to the offensive side of the game.

I don’t think McDavid is as skilled but I think he might be the most effective offensive player of all time. Adjusted for era of course. and I want to find a better word than “effective” but I don’t know what that might be.

*might be* - don’t @ me

Meh he’s me when I was carrying Vancouver on my back.

[mikey]

no dumo = no cup in 2017, and he played well above replacement level during that run. yinz are sleeping on some real value.

stevens is a mystery to me. i watched the cup video like 50 times when i was a kid, but beyond the highlights, i have no clue how crucial he was to the team's success, and whether or not there was a lemieux factor here or if he really was a force of nature on his own. so i can't really dispute him being top dog, but i have doubts.

and i already regret not putting orpik at the bottom.

Stevens was a force of nature. Like everyone he greatly benefited from Mario, but dude was a 40 goal scorer and tied for 16th in the league in 90-91 when Mario barely played. Physical force, great in the room as the outspoken leader that Mario wasn't, finished everything that came his way, and was great on the PP.

Stevens or Barrasso as the top choice was the hardest decision for me, but Barrasso's inability to see the puck from outside the blue line cost the team after the two cup runs.

Yeah, Stevens peak as a power forward is historical...he ran **** in the early 90s...and had two 40 goal/80 point campaigns without Lemieux...he was two off the all time playoff goals mark in 1991...I think he was leading the NHL in points late in the 92 season for a bit...he was unstoppable at his peak, just a bit below Neely and Bertuzzi...and even Bert couldn't keep it going as long...

For me, it was only a choice of Stevens or Barrasso at 1 and I went Stevens because his peak here is better than anything Barrasso attempted to string together...

[mikey]

f'n 80's goalies. how did anyone have a GAA in single digits. and i'm serious.

It is a weak time for goaltending, for sure. League expanded beyond the talent pool, plus youth development was altered by NHL rule change in 1965 requiring two goalies to be rostered...this rule change was pushed down to the youth levels...well, parents aren't paying dues to have their kid sit on the bench all day, so youth goalies split time (endurance effected, notice how few goalies in this time even played 55 games?)...as the sponsorship era ended and that player base died of attrition as the 70s ended and 80s began, we see the league hit its lowest point since the War years, imo: the early 80s...notice all the weird stuff that happens in the league in those years (examples can be provided)...

Goaltending was the most adversely effected and it took a while to innovate and recover...

That's the beginning of the nuanced answer...the pop psychology answer is: you watch highlight tapes of nothing but goals and go "man, goalies suck!"...

[meow]

I did more thinking about this than I feel like I should have, but...

1. Stevens
2. Barrasso
3. Dumoulin
4. Kessel
5. Mullen
6. Orpik

[shmenguin]

I did more thinking about this than I feel like I should have, but...

1. Stevens
2. Barrasso
3. Dumoulin
4. Kessel
5. Mullen
6. Orpik

This feels right

[meow]

Dumoulin and Kessel were really a coin flip for me, but I gave it to Dumo because I was living and dying with him during some of the those shifts where he was punching way above his weight class.

[shmenguin]

Orpik springing Cleary for a breakaway in game 6 in ‘09...worthy of a bottom spot on its own.

[Gaucho]

Orpik was mostly solid and played a lot of games for the Pens. That's about it. Not a slight.

[mikey]

When he moved on, the most games played by a d-man in Penguins history...(passed last season by Letang)

[Rx6687]

Even when Mario came back from 3 years of retirement, he put up

76 points in 43 games
31 in 24
91 in 67
9 in 10
22 in 26

Yes, and if you look at the first 82 games of his comeback (regular season only), he put up 137 points in those 82 games. In the middle of the dead puck era. After sitting out 3+ years.

[Dickie Dunn]

Best shape of his life.

[IMFC]

Even when Mario came back from 3 years of retirement, he put up

76 points in 43 games
31 in 24
91 in 67
9 in 10
22 in 26

Yes, and if you look at the first 82 games of his comeback (regular season only), he put up 137 points in those 82 games. In the middle of the dead puck era. After sitting out 3+ years.

That's just sick. He finished 8th in scoring with that 91pts in 2003 in only 67 games.

[Gaucho]

Yeah, I believe only Forsberg had a higher PPG than 37 year-old Mario.

[shmenguin]

as i continue to set myself on fire here...devil's advocate. in the playoffs in his comeback year, he had 6 goals and 11 assists in 18 games and was largely ineffective against new jersey. what he did that year was amazing. i do believe, however, that there was an additional degree of reverence shown towards him in the regular season where the intensity was lower. i absolutely remember watching guys back off of him during the tail end of that season in ways that didn't make sense. there's a component of "the most skilled player of all time is gonna work me. play it cool", but i don't think that accounts for all of it. if he would have been muscled like he was before the retirement and in subsequent seasons, the 76pts in 43 games looks different.

this isn't related to how he stacks up against mcdavid, but i think that particular season deserves a more detailed look.

IMO.

i think my main issue is that even if a player better than gretzky has come along or will come along, it will be impossible to have an honest discussion about it because of the "relative to competition" perspective that i believe to be a flawed argument. nobody will ever differentiate the way the guys in the 80's did. there is more uniformity now in players and coaches that will suppress outliers.

[Gaucho]

So far, CMD has 9 points in 13 playoff games and if the Oilers continue to be run the way they have been he might finish his career
with that statline.