mikey's Thread of Penguin Randomness

Postby **willeyeam** » Wed May 23, 2018 8:16 am

Fleury is already a HOFer fight me

Postby **Jim** » Wed May 23, 2018 8:28 am

When they try to induct Fleury into the HOF will it just uncontrollably rebound back out into the middle of the slot?

When Fleury goes behind the podium to give his speech will he misplay it, fumble his words, and stand there like a deer in headlights?

Postby **darkstar57** » Wed May 23, 2018 8:31 am

As we stand right now i think Fleury is boardline for the HOF. But 500 wins and 3 Cups (As of right now ). I honestly think the best comparable for Fleury and a HOF change is Belfour(484 wins, 1 cup). I think if he hits the wins milestone with the # of cups he has right now he is in. If he wins another cup this year, he is in.

Postby **Pavel Bure** » Wed May 23, 2018 8:45 am

If he wins his 4th cup AND takes home Conn smyth honors I think he's in

Postby **Troy Loney** » Wed May 23, 2018 8:59 am

Why do local media figures hate Phil Kessel?

Postby **Jim** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:03 am

Why do local media figures hate Phil Kessel?

Because he doesn't feed THEIR egos?

Postby **Gaucho** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:18 am

Fleury has not been an elite goaltender over the course of his career. He should be a longshot. A Conn Smythe would certainly help.

Postby **bhflyhigh** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:20 am

https://www.tsn.ca/talent/the-gut-wrenc ... -1.1091800

Interesting article on playoff goaltending. I do admit that Holtby was good. Better than Murray. A few more saves could have definitely changed the outcome of a game or two.

Postby **NTP66** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:23 am

Murray was awful this postseason.

Postby **Troy Loney** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:27 am

Yes, Murray was terrible and Fleury has been really good. I'm actually pretty impressed that this isn't plastered all over every article and radio bit, Looks like Madden is going in that direction though, but for some reason the Fan and the PG are consumed with the Kessel stuff.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:27 am

Ed Belfour was a lot closer to the Roy/Brodeur/Hasek pantheon than he was given credit for...Fleury is not that.

You can't really use raw totals and get anywhere. You're not supposed to be able to compile your way to a HOF induction. It's about impact. Bobby Smith got 1000 points, Evgeni Malkin (if he retired today) does not have 1000 points. Bobby Smith will never ever ever ever get into the HHOF...Evgeni Malkin could quit tomorrow and he's in in four years.

Belfour is a top 20 goalie in the history of the game.

Let's start with a mountain he can actually climb, shall we? He'll never reach Belfour's stature...no matter how he finishes his career...

Let's start with Roberto Luongo...I'm not convinced Fleury has much on him other than a Cup and a half...and it's not like they are step for step in the regular season either...Luongo was considered elite at his position in his prime...Fleury, never really was...

Whether it's all-star votes from the media (not all star game, mind you) or Vezina votes from the GM. There's no time where Fleury was considered a top-5 player in his position...not a single year (pending this year) or, more importantly, not a noteworthy stretch of time...and even as a Fleury backer, I'm not sure that was ever the case either...when was he considered elite for a sustained period of time? Pretty much never. That's the antithesis of HOFer...

It's crazy how forgetful people get because he's having an amazing run this year...it's being painted - by Penguins fans no less - as if this is how he always was...

Postby **NTP66** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:30 am

I didn't forget about 2009-10 through 2012-13. Those were absolutely horrid postseason years for Fleury. He has been very, very good since then, IMO.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:33 am

Sure, very good...which doesn't get you into the HOF...it gets you into the Hall of Very Good. Which Fleury absolutely belongs in...

Postby **Silentom** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:35 am

I don't like it, but I don't disagree.

Postby **NTP66** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:39 am

I don't like it, but I don't disagree.

Postby **Lemon Berry Lobster** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:41 am

So @mikey what are you doing tonight?

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:42 am

He legitimately needs to string together like a good three or four of this caliber of seasons in a row to cap his career to get into a very tough class (there are almost no goalies in the Hall)...he has almost nothing on his resume at this point...he has 2008, he has the Cup, he has the Johnston regular season(s), he has half the '17 playoffs and he has this year...

And then major valleys like the 2012 and 2013 playoffs and then a bunch of "eh whatever"...

Should we account for the fact he was on an offensive team? Of course. When he had Therien and Johnston, he delivered the goods...but it's not to any magical elite level.

Get through Luongo, he might well be the line, then we'll talk...

Postby **willeyeam** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:49 am

Is this debate "Is Fleury going to be a hall of famer" or "should Fleury be a hall of famer?"

because I think he will, 100%, if they win the Cup. Most likely even if they lose it and he has another few good seasons. While 500 wins might not mean much to us or mikey, writers and voters gobble that milestone **** up on HOF resumes

Postby **willeyeam** » Wed May 23, 2018 9:51 am

Just as Hasek, Roy and Brodeur will be in from one era, I don't think it's a stretch to think Luongo and Flower are in. I'm not sure Lundqvist gets left out either. Shrug

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:07 am

Lundqvist being framed as an also-ran is interesting, as he is easily the best post-lockout goalie and it's not remotely close I don't think...

It's Luongo and Fleury that would struggle...

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:24 am

So now that I pushed the discussion one way...let me flip the script and argue the other side...

The HOF committee seems to have really softened its stance on adding slugs (relative) that played in a certain era to the Hall...Andreychuk is in, Nieuwendyk is in, Housley is in...players that were really not considered elite worth a damn...Andreychuk a power play front man, sure, that's giving him a lot of mileage though...

So you never want to compound problems by going "well, such and such is in...so therefore..." that's a very dumb way to look at it...by that logic, "Trump became President, so why not Regis Philbin...?" That said, let's explore that logic...

Billy Smith - a split time guy in the 70s and 80s (as was the style at the time) only appeared in 50 games (!) once in his career and that was back in 1975 and the only result was that he led the league in ties...this is a guy with one Vezina, never really had a lot of complete season (by design) to really be an elite regular season guy...but he was a playoff fiend...you know you're living well when you lead the playoffs in wins five straight years...he's got 4 Cups, he's got one Smythe, he's got one Vezina and he played in a weak era for goaltending (which, you could argue, Fleury played in as well to a degree...though, not quite as weak, certainly)...he's in.

Maybe you look towards Grant Fuhr too...it's a better regular season resume than Smith by a lot...he also has four Cups...and like Fleury, he played on a freewheeling offensive juggernaut, so his one-time top-5 finish in save pct. and one-time top-5 finish in GAA (like Fleury) is comparable...

Now, contemporarily, Smith and Fuhr were considered just about the best of the era, certainly consistently through the 80s...Fuhr adapted into another era and hung around, Smith really didn't do much outside the cushy inners of Al Arbour's system...again, you don't like to say "because Dick Duff did this, therefore, Mike Ribeiro is that..." but after we have forgotten the granular details of this, will they look back and go "hey, 4 Cups...5? Had a major impact on an expansion team with a bunch of nobodies...helped a modern dynasty get moving too...and the only goalie from that era we have in is Lundqvist right now...let's give him a look..."

I don't think it's the right way to go, but it's remotely plausible if you're willing to overlook a lot of logic...

Postby **meow** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:49 am

I don't see any goalies getting in for a long time. While the overall talent of goalies is higher now than it has ever close, we don't have any truly dominant keepers - and haven't since probably Brodeur.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:56 am

I think Lundqivst definitely qualifies...but he might be alone...

5x top-3 in Vezina voting, won one. First-Team once, Second-Team once...
3x he got to the Conference Final, 1x to the SCF with a pretty mediocre team...
Gold medal in a best on best Olympics...
5x top-5 in wins
2x top-5 in GAA
3x top-5 in save pct.
4x top-5 in shutouts

That's about as good as it gets in this era...and it's pretty good in its own right...

Postby **meow** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:57 am

BUT HOW MANY CUPS?!

EXACTLY

NEXT

Postby **Silentom** » Wed May 23, 2018 10:58 am

17x petulant man-child.