Fifth Avenue Forum

Madden's new name for MJ. He and Steigy ripped MJ to shreds on today's show. Said he has Pens, all players and all lines, playing a generic dump and chase style that's stifling the skill on this team. Steigy also said there isn't enough skill to withstand injuries to Malkin and Horny. So we're basically being screwed on two fronts.

I think there is truth to that and also want to say I'm not liking MJ as I thought I would. It's been building up for a few weeks for me. I'm just going to have to hope for the best in the playoffs.

So there isnt enough skill, but the team is being hampered by playing too simple. Makes perfect sense.

So there isnt enough skill, but the team is being hampered by playing too simple. Makes perfect sense.

What they were referring to was that previous coaches (not including Bylsma who opened things up for all lines and caused defensive issues) always catered the game to certain players. For instance, Sid should play a different game than guys on line 4. They were saying MJ's system is too restrictive for our skill players. Let's remember what Lovejoy said with this being the most scripted offensive system he has ever witnessed.

I'm just reporting what was said and I think they were onto something.

Dump and chase is the last thing that would work for this team. Never enough speed across opponent's blue line from either the puck carrier or the chasers, never enough drive by the skaters when they get in, leading to too much chaos without the puck.

I remember several years ago when Steiggerflop and Error had Paul Coffey in the booth during a game when the Pens were playing basically like they are now, and were dumping themselves to death. Coffey was so incensed at the approach, and he said it perfectly:

"You work so hard to get the puck...why the hell do you want to give it away intentionally?" - or something close to that.

Truer words, Coff...Truer words.

El Generico was a great wrestler. Well still is a great wrestler just under a different name.

El Generico was a great wrestler. Well still is a great wrestler just under a different name.

Did he dump and chase too?

El Generico was a great wrestler. Well still is a great wrestler just under a different name.

Ole!

Here's what a coach needs to say. Trotz calling out the Caps, even after a win.

http://m.espn.go.com/nhl/story?storyId=12571359

I thought this said El Geratol.

Here's what a coach needs to say. Trotz calling out the Caps, even after a win.

http://m.espn.go.com/nhl/story?storyId=12571359

"I didn't think we had a real hard work ethic, weren't diligent on our responsibilities, and that was probably one of our sloppier games," Trotz said. - check

"Our decision-making was poor," he lamented. - check

"Our execution was poor," he added. - check

"I'll say our resiliency and determination were average, at best," he continued. "We had too many guys that weren't getting it done tonight." - oh hell yeah check

"As I said to the guys," Trotz recounted, "if we play that way in the next two games, it won't be pretty for us." - well said, coach

Didn't Sid say after the Carolina game that we're close to being where we need to be? I..... disagree? Maybe I'm wrong (shrug). I like Lovejoy better when he says we're awful and terrible.

With all due respect, which is none, neither Mark Madden nor Paul friggin Steigerwald ffs have any idea what system mike johnstown is running

So because once again we have a head coach who chooses to talk behind doors rather than through the press and publicly criticizes for us to witness, he's a bad coach? And because it's a more boring brand of hockey and people watching think we're holding back skill, whatever that means, he is a bad coach?

Maybe it's me, but I'm the most optimistic about a playoff run since 2010 (thanks skategate) and this team looks and feels different than it has in several years.

I hope a few of you don't want Babcock here either because he is the Crosby of coaches and the "complaints" made about Johnson would seem tame. Then again, maybe the real issue Madden and others have is it's a new coach and not a big name.

Yeah, I really don't want to see guys (players, coaches, etc.) calling out players, coaches, the team through the media...that's how places like Toronto operate...that's amateur hour...every once in a while, you give an honest answer when you're a little hot...but I'd rather have a coach that's in control internally than some guy like Bruce Boudreau who is just going to go up to a press conference, yell, "f******************kkkkkkk" for 30 straight seconds and then projectile vomit everywhere...

It's tough as a fan to not directly hear everything that the players feel is wrong with the team and it doesn't help that we don't have professional beat writers for most part, but I respect the process and understand that I am not and should not be privy to every detail...

Yeah I'm inclined to agree. Presenting a publicly professional demeanor and image isn't necessarily a sign of a country club atmosphere, poor coaching, etc.

By and large, isn't "generic" hockey what wins Stanley Cups? Responsible defense play. Dumping the puck and wearing down defenseman. Pucks on net. Dirty, garbage goals. The Penguins have tried relying on their skill since 2009 and have won jack diggity. Maybe Johnston has them playing a system that he believes presents the best opportunity to win in the playoffs and the players are just having trouble adjusting as the regular season winds down. I certainly rather them have issues adjusting to a system as the regular season winds down than have trouble adjusting in the first round of the playoffs.

By and large, isn't "generic" hockey what wins Stanley Cups? Responsible defense play. Dumping the puck and wearing down defenseman. Pucks on net. Dirty, garbage goals. The Penguins have tried relying on their skill since 2009 and have won jack diggity. Maybe Johnston has them playing a system that he believes presents the best opportunity to win in the playoffs and the players are just having trouble adjusting as the regular season winds down. I certainly rather them have issues adjusting to a system as the regular season winds down than have trouble adjusting in the first round of the playoffs.

That might be true, but the Pens presented us the idea of being a puck-possession team. I think that's how they tried to form the lineup.

With all due respect, which is none, neither Mark Madden nor Paul friggin Steigerwald ffs have any idea what system mike johnstown is running

Not necessarily. We can all see if the team is playing puck possession, dump/chase, or trap. We started out as puck possession early on, traveling in a group of 5, supporting and keeping the puck. They abandoned that somewhere. Maybe with the injuries, who knows.

On a side note, like them or not, those two have a bigger insight on the team than we do. They talk to the coaches and players.

A puck possession and dump and chase system don't have to be separate entities. You can be a dump and chase team but still focus on puck possession or vice versa.

The main focus of dump in chase in terms of a possession game is getting a good forecheck going and causing turnovers, which lead to offensive zone puck possession. Also, the chase part is directly related to possession, as you have 2 guys going in to chase the puck down and gain possession to set up a cycle or whatever the offensive zone strategy happens to be.

Like most instances in the game of hockey, it's not a black and white issue.

Yeah, those aren't really systems...they are ideas. You can't just tell a team "well, team, we're going to play a puck possession system...go..." everyone is going to have a different take on what that actually entails...

I don't know much about Madden, but he seems like Rob Ryan...a big goofball, who is on the air way too much...and Steigy, who I'm actually familiar with, seems to have only a modest grasp of the game in general...with inconsistent peaks and valleys of thoughtfulness...

Like that dingus that was asking one of the players or coaches what F3 was or whatever...just because you have the inside access, doesn't mean you have the insightful knowledge necessarily...

Yeah, I didn't even really like using the word "system" because of what you mentioned

Dump and chase on offense is not an optimal way to play puck possession when you have guys like Letang, Crosby, Malkin, Martin, and maybe Pouliot on the team. Use any method of zone entry other than that unless they are really trying to give it to you.