GDT: Pens vs. Yotes - 02/29/2016

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:06 pm

Believe me, I don't care much for "fancy stats" either...but there's nothing fancy about this...pucks don't get behind Fleury when Bonino is on the ice. And it's to a noteworthy degree vs. other forwards.

Bonino, conveniently, passes the eye test as well...unless you're falling asleep during games, of course, which might be the root of the problem...

I mean yea, his 11 points in the MJ era were sleep inducing, which mind you all those fancy stats are a part of more than likely....

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:08 pm

Honestly, now I've gone through every team above us in the standings with the exception of Montreal and they all have solid 2 way players, and by two way, I mean they actually score.

Postby **meow** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:15 pm

How many of those players are the best at keeping pucks out of their own net?

Postby **Avyran** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:16 pm

Doesn't Bonino only make 1.9 million?

That seems pretty cheap for a proven 3rd-line center.

Postby **Beveridge** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:18 pm

I remember Jordan Staal not because of his SH goals, which were sweet, or his tic tac toe goals with Kennedy and Cooke, but because every single time he took the ice, I was confident that: 1) The puck was about to be cycled in clinic style in the opponent's zone and 2) At the very least, the puck wasn't going in our net.

I might not have the confidence in number 1 with Sutter or Bonino, but I do still have confidence in number 2, more so with Bonino. That's what I want in a third line center. Goals are a nice bonus.

But to each their own in 3rd line center preference.

Postby **NTP66** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:20 pm

Source of the post I might not have the confidence in number 1 with Sutter or Bonino, but I do still have confidence in number 2, more so with Bonino. That's what I want in a third line center. Goals are a nice bonus.

This.

Postby **shmenguin** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:26 pm

bonino is at least aware that he has linemates, which is something sutter never realized in his tenure here.

he's fine. he makes the right play, doesn't get pinned in his own zone, and can execute the occasional skill play. in 2016's NHL, that's about all you can ask for. maybe a guy with some more snarl would be good, but even that is being marginalized more by the day.

Postby **Dickie Dunn** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:35 pm

I like Bonino and I liked Sutter before him.

Staal was a 1/2 (more realistically a 2) center stuck behind 2 of the best (probably the 2 best) active centers in the league during his tenure here. He took advantage of not having to work against top defensive pairs and/or top shutdown forwards. While Zets, Pasha, and Lidstrom were busy with Sid and Geno, Staal and boys were becoming the "best third line everrrrrr!!!!"

I'd like to see the non offensive numbers between Staal, Sutter, and Bonino.

My guess is the main reason people pine for a score sheet line 3 center is because Staal had enough talent to take advantage of inferior opponents.

*That third line had some great chemistry. One of the times where the sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
I mean, yea - 3 scoring lines are better than two. That's been pretty much proven over and over every year in the playoffs. It's no shock that this year's best teams have quality rookies, and solid third lines: Hawks, Caps (my goodness), Ducks, Panthers, Stars.

Which comes down to the main reason that our depth chart is still too top heavy.

Is the depth chart still too top heavy or did the guys slated for 3rd line duty just not score at the rate expected of them? It's pretty easy to look at recent history and expect Fehr and Bonino to score around 15 goals. Add in a third wheel like a healthy Beau Bennett (though we all know that's impossible to have), and you're looking at a third line that should produce. It just hasn't happened that way. As it is, Cullen is producing at a better rate than he did last season and is a pleasant surprise. It's all come recently, but over an 82 game season Wilson would be on pace for 15+. I think the scoring depth is there, it just needs to produce as expected.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:57 pm

bonino is at least aware that he has linemates, which is something sutter never realized in his tenure here.

he's fine. he makes the right play, doesn't get pinned in his own zone, and can execute the occasional skill play. in 2016's NHL, that's about all you can ask for. maybe a guy with some more snarl would be good, but even that is being marginalized more by the day.

Shmenguin is on board too. And we have two of these guys...Fehr is the other one, and he has some more rough stuff than Bonino to boot...

I don't know what the problem is really...other than we want a second line center to play third line center again, which is understandable, but not likely to happen again...

Thank God we have Crosby and Malkin, two #1 centers or our #2 center wouldn't produce enough either probably...

Like with one of the teams you mentioned earlier, Chicago...their third line center is Teuvo Teravainen, and while being more talented than Bonino, he's on pace for 35 points...but he's also a net-minus player at ES...and can't take any faceoffs...meanwhile, their second line center, the guy that has spent all season playing with the league MVP Patrick Kane, the highest scoring player in the league, he's got 34 points this year, on his way to 44...so it's not like they can just make goals out of thin air, there's a cap...somewhere you gotta take a hit...

Dallas flips their lines around way too much to get a handle on...but I guess their best look at a 3C is Cody Eakin, who isn't even great defensively but is a diesel forechecker. It's a team that is all offense, all the time...he produced at sub-2 per 60 (only Vern Fiddler and Antoine Roussel, fourth liners) are worse...he gives up 2.5 per 60 when he's out there...net minus at 5v5...

I guess Florida's 3C is technically Nick Bjugstad with Dave Bolland having been rolled up in a carpet...he's much bigger and much more talented than Bonino as well...on pace for 38, super, but no forward has more goals go in against while he's on the ice...

So...I mean you look all over the league, and somewhere you make a sacrifice by and large...there's other teams that probably have their third line center score more than we do...no doubt...those same teams have their third line center victimized for goals more than we do...

Keeping goals out has always been more valuable than putting them in...that doesn't project change either...two-way forwards, sure, but it's a two-way street...we have a lot of firepower in the lineup where I don't need Nick Bonino to score 20...unless he's playing with Crosby or Malkin...

Postby **shmenguin** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:02 pm

the knock against bonino would be that a bunch of guys came up from WBS and had spurts of looking just as capable to play his minutes.

...but would they do it every game for 80+ games? doubtful. and bonino doesn't even make that much more than them.

Postby **NTP66** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:05 pm

The WBS call-ups looked capable in the offensive zone, but none of them has looked as good as Bonino does in his own end, nor in the faceoff circle.

Postby **Silentom** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:06 pm

Boningo! Er....Bingo....bonino. Or something.

Postby **NTP66** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:08 pm

I think the talk of HF has tainted this thread.

Postby **meow** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:12 pm

I think the talk of HF has tainted this thread.

The wheels haven't fallen off yet

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:34 pm

Thanks for the discussion, there's much smarm from a few people.

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:36 pm

bonino is at least aware that he has linemates, which is something sutter never realized in his tenure here.

he's fine. he makes the right play, doesn't get pinned in his own zone, and can execute the occasional skill play. in 2016's NHL, that's about all you can ask for. maybe a guy with some more snarl would be good, but even that is being marginalized more by the day.
Shmenguin is on board too. And we have two of these guys...Fehr is the other one, and he has some more rough stuff than Bonino to boot...

I don't know what the problem is really...other than we want a second line center to play third line center again, which is understandable, but not likely to happen again...

Thank God we have Crosby and Malkin, two #1 centers or our #2 center wouldn't produce enough either probably...

Like with one of the teams you mentioned earlier, Chicago...their third line center is Teuvo Teravainen, and while being more talented than Bonino, he's on pace for 35 points...but he's also a net-minus player at ES...and can't take any faceoffs...meanwhile, their second line center, the guy that has spent all season playing with the league MVP Patrick Kane, the highest scoring player in the league, he's got 34 points this year, on his way to 44...so it's not like they can just make goals out of thin air, there's a cap...somewhere you gotta take a hit...

Dallas flips their lines around way too much to get a handle on...but I guess their best look at a 3C is Cody Eakin, who isn't even great defensively but is a diesel forechecker. It's a team that is all offense, all the time...he produced at sub-2 per 60 (only Vern Fiddler and Antoine Roussel, fourth liners) are worse...he gives up 2.5 per 60 when he's out there...net minus at 5v5...

I guess Florida's 3C is technically Nick Bjugstad with Dave Bolland having been rolled up in a carpet...he's much bigger and much more talented than Bonino as well...on pace for 38, super, but no forward has more goals go in against while he's on the ice...

So...I mean you look all over the league, and somewhere you make a sacrifice by and large...there's other teams that probably have their third line center score more than we do...no doubt...those same teams have their third line center victimized for goals more than we do...

Keeping goals out has always been more valuable than putting them in...that doesn't project change either...two-way forwards, sure, but it's a two-way street...we have a lot of firepower in the lineup where I don't need Nick Bonino to score 20...unless he's playing with Crosby or Malkin...

I don't think I said I expect him to produce like a world beater, I just expected more than 11 points. Not that you've done it here completely, but the attitude that people speak of at LGP for posters being elitist does tend to pop up here, and that's a major, major turn off.

People are going to have differing opinions, but too quickly are people here or anywhere on the net really ready to disarm people and flat out call them wrong.

I prefer a third line center that produces more than 11 points, considering we have enough evidence over the past 5+ years, that if you shut the two top lines out, most good teams have a capable of scoring third line. Something that the Pens have missed dearly.

That thought ALSO DOESNT MEAN I WANT JORDAN STAAL OR A SECOND LINE CENTER PLAYING A 3RD LINE CENTER BACK. 11 POINTS IS NOT ENOUGH, imo.

By and large, you can have the best of whatever and still lose. It's likely to happen to Washington. Which is why none of us are professionals that make trade decisions.

Postby **Blue Canary** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:37 pm

Boningo! Er....Bingo....bonino. Or something.

Oingo Boingo

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:47 pm

I also guess by and large, I'd be interested to see how Bonino et all fare in the playoffs. While your depth not scoring now isn't an issue necessarily, I worry we're going to see the same fate of nobody in the lower 9 producing consistently in the play-offs when teams clamp down on the top two lines.

Postby **MR25** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 2:54 pm

Source of the post considering we have enough evidence over the past 5+ years, that if you shut the two top lines out, most good teams have a capable of scoring third line. Something that the Pens have missed dearly.

Sutter more than pulled his weight come playoff time. I'm not sure I understand this sentiment.

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:00 pm

Source of the post considering we have enough evidence over the past 5+ years, that if you shut the two top lines out, most good teams have a capable of scoring third line. Something that the Pens have missed dearly.
Sutter more than pulled his weight come playoff time. I'm not sure I understand this sentiment.

In 2013/14, yea. I don't considering him pulling his weight in 12/13 and 14/15.

Postby **meow** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:06 pm

I'm having trouble understanding how you feel like these numbers are poor for a third line, heavy lifting center. It doesn't compute for me

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:08 pm

I'm having trouble understanding how you feel like these numbers are poor for a third line, heavy lifting center. It doesn't compute for me

Well for the playoffs above, the first year he played 15 games and produced 3 points...the second year? Yea he took over, and was great. Last year? 5 games again, 3 points, but the Rangers.

I mean is 3 points and a -1 good for a third line center in 15 games? I don't think so.

YouTube · Postby **mikey** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:29 pm

He did score like the only goal of the series against Boston when the top two lines were sequestered into an air-less chamber of some sort...

Either way, on the aggregate Brandon Sutter was our best player the past two playoffs by my eye...he has another level that I only hope Bonino can reach as well...

Postby **dodint** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:30 pm

In reading this whole conversation I confused Staal with Sutter and just couldn't figure out what the hell was going on. Been staring at computers too much today. Yeesh.

Postby **Morkle** » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:32 pm

He did score like the only goal of the series against Boston when the top two lines were sequestered into an air-less chamber of some sort...

Either way, on the aggregate Brandon Sutter was our best player the past two playoffs by my eye...he has another level that I only hope Bonino can reach as well...

Ha, fair enough.