Fire MJ

mikey
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Postby mikey » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:57 am

Because Neal + (one of the guys that go to the net) > all the guys that go to the net. Mikey's point, I think, is that there a glut of goal scoring because so many people are going to the net, stealing production from each other and not getting scoring from the middle of the attack zone.
Image

Our best distance finisher is Evgeni Malkin. That said, I still agree with the Neal trade. Because Hornqvist is better at what he does than Neal at what he does. And it was a much needed character facelift for the club. We can win with the group we have, but it's an element that we lack now as a result. Which I don't think is a surprise to anyone. Neal is a tier-two sniper, we know we lost some goal-scoring touch. But we're probably better as a group. The cycle game is going to be our best bet overall...but let's not forget we have two of the best playmakers/gamebreakers in the whole league...good, bad or indifferent, we're going to be counting on these guys for the "next" goal...they can create on the rush, some of the others aren't so good at that...hopefully we can get Perron in a more comfortable spot, he's the ace in the hole in that regard because he's more versatile than the other wingers...better hands, can roof the puck from in close, accurate shooter but not overpowering...he'd be good with a Hornqvist screen in front because he can place a shot...

meow
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Postby meow » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:05 am

That circles me back to the only problem I have with MJ - role definition. I think some players are struggle to find what their role is in certain situations and with certain linemates.

TheHammer24
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Postby TheHammer24 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:12 am

Because Neal + (one of the guys that go to the net) > all the guys that go to the net. Mikey's point, I think, is that there a glut of goal scoring because so many people are going to the net, stealing production from each other and not getting scoring from the middle of the attack zone.
I would tend to agree with that if we werent getting chances. The problem I have seen of late is finishing.
I defer to mikey (always), but that's where Neal would benefit us. He missed less.

But, wow. A civilized discussion in this board. I made this same comment (on the other board), and was vilified for 20 posts until someone responded.

TheHammer24
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Postby TheHammer24 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:13 am

Because Neal + (one of the guys that go to the net) > all the guys that go to the net. Mikey's point, I think, is that there a glut of goal scoring because so many people are going to the net, stealing production from each other and not getting scoring from the middle of the attack zone.
Image

Our best distance finisher is Evgeni Malkin. That said, I still agree with the Neal trade. Because Hornqvist is better at what he does than Neal at what he does. And it was a much needed character facelift for the club. We can win with the group we have, but it's an element that we lack now as a result. Which I don't think is a surprise to anyone. Neal is a tier-two sniper, we know we lost some goal-scoring touch. But we're probably better as a group. The cycle game is going to be our best bet overall...but let's not forget we have two of the best playmakers/gamebreakers in the whole league...good, bad or indifferent, we're going to be counting on these guys for the "next" goal...they can create on the rush, some of the others aren't so good at that...hopefully we can get Perron in a more comfortable spot, he's the ace in the hole in that regard because he's more versatile than the other wingers...better hands, can roof the puck from in close, accurate shooter but not overpowering...he'd be good with a Hornqvist screen in front because he can place a shot...
Glut is the opposite of what I wanted to use.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:17 am

I like hornqvist but using his numbers this year against Neal's this year is patently ridiculous

It's also not a coincidence that our power play hasn't been very good without Neal.

But the trade was probably still the right move.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:23 am

while Comeau isn't the shooter Neal is, he fills the same need on Malkin's line. Trading Neal for Hornqivst (AND Spaling who has played every game and has been very important to our team) worked out because Hornqvist isn't needed as a Neal replacement because he fills a different need.

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Postby Craig » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:37 am

I like hornqvist but using his numbers this year against Neal's this year is patently ridiculous

It's also not a coincidence that our power play hasn't been very good without Neal.

But the trade was probably still the right move.
I agree that its ridiculous. Neal doesnt contribute beyond the numbers, hornqvist does.

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Postby mikey » Tue Apr 07, 2015 11:41 am

Because Neal + (one of the guys that go to the net) > all the guys that go to the net. Mikey's point, I think, is that there a glut of goal scoring because so many people are going to the net, stealing production from each other and not getting scoring from the middle of the attack zone.
Image

Our best distance finisher is Evgeni Malkin. That said, I still agree with the Neal trade. Because Hornqvist is better at what he does than Neal at what he does. And it was a much needed character facelift for the club. We can win with the group we have, but it's an element that we lack now as a result. Which I don't think is a surprise to anyone. Neal is a tier-two sniper, we know we lost some goal-scoring touch. But we're probably better as a group. The cycle game is going to be our best bet overall...but let's not forget we have two of the best playmakers/gamebreakers in the whole league...good, bad or indifferent, we're going to be counting on these guys for the "next" goal...they can create on the rush, some of the others aren't so good at that...hopefully we can get Perron in a more comfortable spot, he's the ace in the hole in that regard because he's more versatile than the other wingers...better hands, can roof the puck from in close, accurate shooter but not overpowering...he'd be good with a Hornqvist screen in front because he can place a shot...
Glut is the opposite of what I wanted to use.
Haha, yeah, I know...and I read it as if "glut" had an opposite meaning (dearth?)...there was too much in the way of context clues to ignore what you meant... :thumb:

thehockeyguru
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Postby thehockeyguru » Tue Apr 07, 2015 12:12 pm

Because Neal + (one of the guys that go to the net) > all the guys that go to the net. Mikey's point, I think, is that there a glut of goal scoring because so many people are going to the net, stealing production from each other and not getting scoring from the middle of the attack zone.
I would tend to agree with that if we werent getting chances. The problem I have seen of late is finishing.
I defer to mikey (always), but that's where Neal would benefit us. He missed less.

But, wow. A civilized discussion in this board. I made this same comment (on the other board), and was vilified for 20 posts until someone responded.
Neal has had his struggles finishing in the playoffs. So I am kind of holding my tongue until I see how guys look in the post-season. Neal was a good finisher in the regular season and in the playoffs when he wasnt able to finish as much, he didnt offer anything else to the team. Hornqvist on the other hand is very noticable and contributes beyond the stat sheet.

I think the issue the Pens are having is Kunitz has begun deteriorating and management didnt account for that. Perron has kind of hit a wall since being acquired.

My hope come playoff time is Malkin and Crosby start taking more shots and relying on their wingers less. I want to see them be more selfish in the playoffs. I would rather have them shooting and the other guys crashing the net for rebounds then Crosby / Malkin trying for the perfect pass.

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Postby shmenguin » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:31 pm

while Comeau isn't the shooter Neal is, he fills the same need on Malkin's line.
based on the last few months, comeau doesn't fill any need on this team

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Postby mikey » Tue Apr 07, 2015 1:39 pm

Players playing over their head or above their pay grade will tend to show cracks as season's go on/games become more important/pre- and advanced scouting is done more fervently...not unlike weak defenders with strong partners (Matt Carle with Chris Pronger, Andreas Lilja with Nicklas Lidstrom), weak wingers with strong centers (P.A. Parenteau with John Tavares, Warren Young with Mario Lemieux), or weak goaltenders behind strong defenses (Brian Elliott with St. Louis, Roman Cechmanek with Philadelphia)...this is why anticipation (for mental growth) and adaptability and sustainability all become key factors in the evaluation process...

Comeau ought to return to the fourth line to re-focus his attention...bump Downie up for now...

thehockeyguru
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Postby thehockeyguru » Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:22 pm

Players playing over their head or above their pay grade will tend to show cracks as season's go on/games become more important/pre- and advanced scouting is done more fervently...not unlike weak defenders with strong partners (Matt Carle with Chris Pronger, Andreas Lilja with Nicklas Lidstrom), weak wingers with strong centers (P.A. Parenteau with John Tavares, Warren Young with Mario Lemieux), or weak goaltenders behind strong defenses (Brian Elliott with St. Louis, Roman Cechmanek with Philadelphia)...this is why anticipation (for mental growth) and adaptability and sustainability all become key factors in the evaluation process...

Comeau ought to return to the fourth line to re-focus his attention...bump Downie up for now...
I'd like to see Downie moved into the Top 6 for a little bit.

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Postby MalkinIsMyHomeboy » Tue Apr 07, 2015 10:18 pm

Probably an overreaction, but man, I would not lose sleep if he was fired now

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Postby NailedPenguin » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:44 am

I'm still not anti MJ, but man I still can't figure out why these guys held on to Bylsma while guys like Trotz and Laviolette were on the market. I know mikey will probably come in here with 8 paragraphs of why both are bad coaches and we'd hate them but theres no reason a franchise like the Pens had to settle on a 3rd choice or whatever he was other than they just dropped the ball and inexplicable didn't fire Dan right along with Ray.

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Postby Freddy Rumsen » Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:30 am

Honestly who wants to come work for JR and an absentee ownership with Tammany Hall rep Morehouse running things? That is how you end up with MJ.

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Postby Viva la Ben » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:30 am

I really don't see any reason to keep MJ around.

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Postby Tico Rick » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:17 am

MJ is a good coach. A really good coach, much better than Bylsma. With a few more years of NHL experience under his belt, he could become a great coach. But one problem is that he's used to teaching young kids and he has had to adjust to dealing with vets who've been around for quite awhile. Unfortunately, the Pens being comprised the way they are – in the prime of the careers of two superstars - MJ may not be the best fit. But I think a hard@$$ coach like Tortorella would be a total disaster. What is needed is a psychological coach, someone who knows how to push different buttons on different players. Maybe MJ can be that guy. I'm just not sure right now.
Last edited by Tico Rick on Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sarcastic » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:39 am

We can't wait a few years for MJ to get used to running things/dealing with adult players in the NHL. This season, he looks over his head at times.

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Postby mikey » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:23 am

We can't wait a few years for MJ to get used to running things/dealing with adult players in the NHL. This season, he looks over his head at times.
At what times...?

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Postby meow » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:35 am

That time with the thing and that look on his face. You know which time I'm taking about.

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Postby shafnutz05 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:02 am

That time with the thing and that look on his face. You know which time I'm taking about.
Proof:

Image

meow
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Postby meow » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:10 am

That time with the thing and that look on his face. You know which time I'm taking about.
Proof:

Image
Image

cadams
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Postby cadams » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:42 am

I'm sure MJ is a great teacher and a smart hockey guy. But so was Constantine and he was a horrible NHL coach. MJ had the team playing his system perfect to open the year but NHL coaches and players figured out how to beat it and MJ could not adjust.

This team needs a coach who will win battles with officials and in the press. They don't need a teacher. Give me a Tortorella or a Melrose. One guy who migth actually be a great fit is Randy Carlyle.

But Johnston isn't the right guy at this time and clearly wasn't the guy they wanted to hire to begin with.

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Postby mikey » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:48 am

Constantine was a horrible NHL coach, but Barry Melrose...*stifling laughter* is someone you want...?

Also, Randy Carlyle, who let his team play so little defense and with such little emotional investment that the same issues that people say we have with Bylsma-isms still hanging around are going to lead to the Leafs trading their upper tier players...? That guy you want? Because you miss Bylsma...?

And "a coach who will win battles with officials..." how does one win these battles...? Melrose get a lot of calls overturned with mullet power...? Or coke benders...?

The grass is always greener, isn't it...

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Postby cadams » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:55 am

Tortorella will yell at officials and for some reason that gets calls your way and so will some other guys. No one can look at the games after Letang got tossed and say we weren't gettign screwed but Johnston just sat there looking confused.

Melrose is OK with an older team, so is Carlyle. Both would be better than Johnston and Bylsma probably would be too. Laviolette would have been perfect but oh well.

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